An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Why would the true Romans give up Rome to their enemies? What stupidity is that. They paid many lives to reconquer and hold it from people who wanted them dead and converted.

All this talk about giving up Rome is just nonsense, your adding fuel to the fire. Just gives ammunition to the ones holding power over Constantinople.

Look the rebel the army is so pathetic that their giving up lands for free just because they want the throne from the true legitimate faction. That's the sort of headlines that would end Sophia so fast to the guillotines.

So yeah people calling out to give up Rome for **** reasons isn't thinking straight and just want to see another Roman + L.

If I'm frank the pace and direction this current story has seriously diminished my love for this TL. The constant L the Romans been receiving where they shouldn't been taking so much. Has me criticizing the need to switch the updates from constant looses but wins as well.

But another one I want to point when the writing is a win for the Romans it just ends up an absolute loss or disaster in some form that it just kills the mood.

Might reply to any objections to my criticism but reading the couple past updates have sap me of my strength to retort a defense to what is absolutely the worst part of this TL.

 

[Trevayne]

Why would the true Romans give up Rome to their enemies? What stupidity is that. They paid many lives to reconquer and hold it from people who wanted them dead and converted.

All this talk about giving up Rome is just nonsense, your adding fuel to the fire. Just gives ammunition to the ones holding power over Constantinople.

Look the rebel the army is so pathetic that their giving up lands for free just because they want the throne from the true legitimate faction. That's the sort of headlines that would end Sophia so fast to the guillotines.

So yeah people calling out to give up Rome for **** reasons isn't thinking straight and just want to see another Roman + L.

If I'm frank the pace and direction this current story has seriously diminished my love for this TL. The constant L the Romans been receiving where they shouldn't been taking so much. Has me criticizing the need to switch the updates from constant looses but wins as well.

But another one I want to point when the writing is a win for the Romans it just ends up an absolute loss or disaster in some form that it just kills the mood.

Might reply to any objections to my criticism but reading the couple past updates have sap me of my strength to retort a defense to what is absolutely the worst part of this TL.

Err, nobody AFIAK is talking about giving up Rome now. The comments were in response to @Basileus444 's comment on not having decided Rome's long term fate. My own speculation was that it might be made a minor state after a major war with the Latins a hundred years or more in the future.

 

[Aged_Urbanist]

Why would the true Romans give up Rome to their enemies? What stupidity is that. They paid many lives to reconquer and hold it from people who wanted them dead and converted.

All this talk about giving up Rome is just nonsense, your adding fuel to the fire. Just gives ammunition to the ones holding power over Constantinople.

Look the rebel the army is so pathetic that their giving up lands for free just because they want the throne from the true legitimate faction. That's the sort of headlines that would end Sophia so fast to the guillotines.

So yeah people calling out to give up Rome for **** reasons isn't thinking straight and just want to see another Roman + L.

If I'm frank the pace and direction this current story has seriously diminished my love for this TL. The constant L the Romans been receiving where they shouldn't been taking so much. Has me criticizing the need to switch the updates from constant looses but wins as well.

But another one I want to point when the writing is a win for the Romans it just ends up an absolute loss or disaster in some form that it just kills the mood.

Might reply to any objections to my criticism but reading the couple past updates have sap me of my strength to retort a defense to what is absolutely the worst part of this TL.

Who knew, immature squeeing fanboyism gets even more annoying when the fanboy is angry.

Rome going from triumph to greater triumph would be neither realistic nor entertaining.

 

[Explicit]

Who knew, immature squeeing fanboyism gets even more annoying when the fanboy is angry.

Rome going from triumph to greater triumph would be neither realistic nor entertaining.

But neither is going from one L to another all the time, and Rhomania hasn't had an actual real W in Europe/Middle east since the days of Andreas Niketas. They got slapped around by Iskandar the Great, then there was the succession war, which was a pyrrhic victory at best but realistically it was a status quo, with the added benefit of devastated land and economic collapse. Then Odysseus came to power and I thought we were finally going to see some Ws but no, the guy killed himself and all the gains he made were undone in like 20 years.

All I want is to see some lasting Wins please. Like this whole general crisis saga started in November 2022 and it's still not even close to being over, probably still escalating, and it's going to end with even more Ls on the Roman side.

 

[Denliner]

Who knew, immature squeeing fanboyism gets even more annoying when the fanboy is angry.

Not like Rome is experiencing a civil war, a war with the Ottomans, and a rebellion in the Sicilian Despotate all at the same time. I'm sure Rhomania is perfectly capable of defending the city militarily or has the public support from Constantinople or Rome itself to commit resources to it.

It's a miracle that Spain and the other Catholic powers have not pressed the issue with Rome militarily, but I suspect this will become more likely as the rebellion to liberate Rome grows stronger.

As far as I know, Rome is a backwater that's populated by thieves and prostitutes. If I had to decide between preserving the Roman state and keeping the Eternal City, I would choose the former 1000% of the time, no question.

 

[Stark]

Rome going from triumph to greater triumph would be neither realistic nor entertaining.

In general theory, yes. And quality of updates or it's detailness and plausibility have remained as good as ever.

But I think people mostly read alt-history to see some nation/people they like do better than OTL.

So, as a confessed Byzantine fanboy I would lie if I did not say that the story arcs since Iskander have brought me less and less joy. Constantly reading about defeats and victories turned to ruin is just not that much fun if you like Bizzies, even if quality and realism of the story did not degrade at all.

And I would say that quality and realism is higher than ever. Level of knowledge Basileus has now is incomparable to the beginning of the story.

I still read every update as soon as it comes and check forums every day. My excitement level is just a bit lower than before.

P.S. I don't think recent updates are especially depressing, just commenting on comments. Overall story arc might be a little (depressing).

 

[Guardonion]

...Is this what happened during Iskander the first, when Romans looked like they were losing more than they were winning? The theme of ups and downs have been pretty consistent in this story.

 

[Trevayne]

In general theory, yes. And quality of updates or it's detailness and plausibility have remained as good as ever.

But I think people mostly read alt-history to see some nation/people they like do better than OTL.

So, as a confessed Byzantine fanboy I would lie if I did not say that the story arcs since Iskander have brought me less and less joy. Constantly reading about defeats and victories turned to ruin is just not that much fun if you like Bizzies, even if quality and realism of the story did not degrade at all.

And I would say that quality and realism is higher than ever. Level of knowledge Basileus has now is incomparable to the beginning of the story.

I still read every update as soon as it comes and check forums every day. My excitement level is just a bit lower than before.

P.S. I don't think recent updates are especially depressing, just commenting on comments. Overall story arc might be a little (depressing).

Err, pretty sure by surviving as a major power for over two centuries past its historical demise, the Byzantines ITTL are doing vastly better than OTL. They have humbled the Ottomans who destroyed them in OTL and wrecked their other great opponent, Venice.

 

[Imperial Inkstand-filler]

Err, pretty sure by surviving as a major power for over two centuries past its historical demise, the Byzantines ITTL are doing vastly better than OTL. They have humbled the Ottoimans who destroyed them in OTL and wrecked their other great opponent, Venice.

I firmly agree (and respectfully disagree with calls that Rhomania needs to be consistently winning). The story is vastly more interesting when Rhomania is capable of being defeated externally, self-sabotaging internally, and being in the wrong morally, than one where they steamrolled their way to world domination. I know B444 has mentioned planning on Rhomania simply being one great power among many in TTL's modern day, and that is vastly preferable to me - and necessarily means that there are other states out there capable of checking Rhomania in power. If anything, seeing Rhomania's dramatic successes in the Indian Ocean (conquering Singapura and Malacca, destroying Triune Bengal) kinda disappointed me, because I want to see these other powers out here beating the Rhomans in certain areas.

On the topic of Rome herself, one thought I had was that, if Sicily & southern Italy end up independent of Constantinople, having a Papal buffer state in Lazio jointly protected by Spanish, Rhomanian, Sicilian, and Lombard troops would be something of an elegant solution to the power dynamics there - Sicily finds itself unable to attack in any direction (east to Hellas, west to Iberia, north to Lombardy, south to Carthage) without risking troops sweeping down on them from the other directions, Catholics get the moral victory of reclaiming Rome for the pontiff while Rhomania gets the moral victory of maintaining a permanent Roman garrison, Spain can position themselves as protector of Catholicism and ensures Italy remains more receptive to Lisbon's whims than they are to Paris's. It does require more setbacks for Rhomania (losing the Despotate of Sicily, most extremely) but I think settles on a situation that could form a resilient peace in the central Mediterranean.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Countries go through phases. Rhomania was rolling all sixes when Andreas Niketas was beating armies 50% larger than his at Cannae and beyond. Now it is the Triune's turn in the sun with their own version of Andreas I in charge in Henri. He'll die and maybe the Triunes will go through their own Time of Troubles. Then maybe Spain or Russia or the HRE or Hungary or whomever will be the primus inter pares in Europe for a decade or two when the stars align.

God knows I've bitched and moaned about Rhomania's crappy luck/leadership in the past. I'm a lot more sanguine about this war mostly because it is a direct result of crappy leadership. When leaders do a bad job there should be consequences and a full-blown revolt makes sense given the Emperor's fecklessness.

 

[Stark]

All true in universe, but in Europe last great (permanent) achievement in Europe (the Flowering) was posted in 2015.

Rome did have great success in the East so I do think we're somewhat spoiled. This crysis will not be the end of the Empire.

All in all, both can be true - Rome was more successfull than average state in period but it can still feel a bit grey for readers (who are I assume mostly Byz fanboys).

 

[Aged_Urbanist]

All I want is to see some lasting Wins please.

Rome is a top-tier power in 1660-something and has expanded to every border that could conceivably be called a natural frontier given the POD.

And then past them, and then even further, IMO.

Given how far Constantinople’s writ runs ITTL, what the hell would be a “lasting win” to you?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Rome is a top-tier power in 1660-something and has expanded to every border that could conceivably be called a natural frontier given the POD.

And then past them, and then even further, IMO.

Given how far Constantinople’s writ runs ITTL, what the hell would be a “lasting win” to you?

This. Rhomania has done well considering the circumstances it started out in the POD. All good things have to come to an end at some point.

 

[Aged_Urbanist]

This. Rhomania has done well considering the circumstances it started out in the POD. All good things have to come to an end at some point.

Let’s see… Spain, Poland, Austria, Turkey, and the Netherlands never again rebounded in a meaningful sense as great powers after their golden ages came to an end. France only partially, the UK as well.

Germany is about the only model for a European power which declined markedly and had a major renaissance, hence the “second Reich,” and it very much seems that by the modern day that’s what has happened to Rome. Without the subsequent unpleasantness.

What the whining fanboyism actually demands is Rhomanian borders which creep outward with only momentary setbacks. That is, for one, ahistorical as hell in this period of time; European powers after 1600 became so by internal strengthening through effective trade and innovation policy, not conquering land in Europe, with a single short-lived exception.

For another, in this era it requires rampant ethnic cleansing; proto-nationalist populations don’t simply assimilate across language and religious barriers in any reasonable timeframe. And the nature of expelling rural subsistence farmers ensures that ethnic cleaning in preindustrial societies means genocide, period.

Exactly how many Italian, Arab, Serb, Hungarian, and Persian families is Constantinople supposed to force into the wilderness at bayonet-point to starve to death before the squeeing fanboys admit there have been “lasting gains?”

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Let’s see… Spain, Poland, Austria, Turkey, and the Netherlands never again rebounded in a meaningful sense as great powers after their golden ages came to an end. France only partially, the UK as well.

Germany is about the only model for a European power which declined markedly and had a major renaissance, hence the “second Reich,” and it very much seems that by the modern day that’s what has happened to Rome. Without the subsequent unpleasantness.

What the whining fanboyism actually demands is Rhomanian borders which creep outward with only momentary setbacks. That is, for one, ahistorical as hell in this period of time; European powers after 1600 became so by internal strengthening through effective trade and innovation policy, not conquering land in Europe, with a single short-lived exception.

For another, in this era it requires rampant ethnic cleansing; proto-nationalist populations don’t simply assimilate across language and religious barriers in any reasonable timeframe. And the nature of expelling rural subsistence farmers ensures preindustrial ethnic cleaning in preindustrial societies means genocide, period.

Exactly how many Italian, Arab, Serb, Hungarian, and Persian families is Constantinople supposed to force into the wilderness at bayonet-point to starve to death before the squeeing fanboys admit there have been “lasting gains?”

Also too much aggressive expansion should bite these nations back at some point. Rhomania being no exception.

 

[Basileus444]

I've wasted far too much time thinking of what to say, and frankly I really resent that loss of time. So, I'm going to act out-of-character and be short and blunt.

I'm telling the story I want to tell. I think I've made it quite clear what kind of story that is. For those who want that sort of thing, great, and thank you for your support. For those who don't want that sort of thing, you are free to leave and go write your own story the way you want it.

 

[Daylight Savings]

Also too much aggressive expansion should bite these nations back at some point. Rhomania being no exception.

I think that's exactly where we are now. They had many great victories and gains leading up to Andreas Niketas was the end of that. He conquered so much, that it was unsustainable. Everything positive moving forward will be about gains outside of Europe, which we saw a lot of recently, brilliant defenses, like the War of Roman Succession, or a spreading of cultural influence/prestige. Things will ebb and flow and even suffering massive losses at a time like this still leaves Rhomania in a significantly better state than anything OTL.

Rome from the republic days had a critical flaw which was their inability to consistently transfer power peacefully. In a world of peer powers that is a fatal flaw. This is the last gasp of that flaw. It's going to hurt, but the hope that it would be solved by a brilliant, prescient plan from Demetrius III or his children was always going to be a pipe dream.

Basileus444 you're writing this for you, but I want you to know that I appreciate all the hard work and difficulty it takes to let your "heroes" lose. It's a rare thing in any media. Heroes take a beating, they get to a darkest hour, but it's rare that they reach the conclusion of an arc actually defeated. It's a great work and I'm glad you're not deterred.

 

[catconqueror]

Sure Rome has no lasting win since the Niketas Era. But they dont exactly have any lasting loss since the time of troubles either. You all talk about Iskandar, but what did he take from the roman apart from some empty deserts? And funfact, they also lost most of his conquest immediately after his death.

And let me ask you this? Did the French otl have any lasting wins(since you define it as European territory, cuz the Roman had several major wins in the east indies) after the 100 years war? Did the Spanish have any lasting wins after the reconquestista? Or the British after the act of unions?

 

[Denliner]

Rome from the republic days had a critical flaw which was their inability to consistently transfer power peacefully. In a world of peer powers that is a fatal flaw. This is the last gasp of that flaw. It's going to hurt, but the hope that it would be solved by a brilliant, prescient plan from Demetrius III or his children was always going to be a pipe dream.

Remember when the Sideroi had that idea to marry the two Imperial dynasties together to resolve this issue in a neat little bow? Those were good times...
Too bad Herakleios had to screw that plan up.

Luckily, the Romans have the opportunity to set up a more concrete method of succession post-Civil War.

Sure Rome has no lasting win since the Niketas Era. But they dont exactly have any lasting loss since the time of troubles either. You all talk about Iskandar, but what did he take from the roman apart from some empty deserts? And funfact, they also lost most of his conquest immediately after his death.

We sometimes forget that Rhomania is still one of the Great Powers in Europe, a colonial empire, and owns mainland borders that are pretty damn close to the time before Justinian through their sweat and blood. Compared to post-1204 (which is pre-POD), Andreas Niketas's youth, and the Time of Troubles, the current civil war seems paltry in comparison.

 

[Aged_Urbanist]

I've wasted far too much time thinking of what to say, and frankly I really resent that loss of time. So, I'm going to act out-of-character and be short and blunt.

I'm telling the story I want to tell. I think I've made it quite clear what kind of story that is. For those who want that sort of thing, great, and thank you for your support. For those who don't want that sort of thing, you are free to leave and go write your own story the way you want it.

Surely there’s a function so that you can block certain people from seeing your posts entirely?