An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure

Not quite yet. Not until industrial equipment allows for the Brazilians to bypass the Great Escarpment entirely and blast a connection into existence between the Amazon's major transport arteries and those of the Plata.
The Amazon was more valuable at the time as a barrier than as an economic artery, the economic artery of South America is the Plata
Otherwise they'll effectively have to split their economy in half--Amazon goes north, Plata stays in the south.
this is likely to happen with the south economically and militarily dominating the north. As happened at otl with the south and southeast being the strongest regions in brazil (both in industry and military)
And it's stupidly difficult to get sufficient overland coastal traffic from north to south in Brazil anyways, so either they try and knock down a half-dozen mountains or be forced send like 80% of their shit down the Paraguay River.
what will probably happen is that the colony will have a gigantic navy out of necessity as happened in the otl to maintain contact between the different parts of the colony. Rio de Janeiro or whatever the name is will probably be the capital due to the gold and diamonds from Minas Gerais. But in the long term (18th and 19th century) power will shift to the south. At OTL Brazil is 50 percent of South America in economy, population and geography. This colony will dominate South America. If they manage to connect the paranaiba river to the são francisco river, the economic core will be connected.
Given the map you posted, somebody's gonna have to spend half a century, if not longer, building roads and canals between the Sao Francisco, Guapore, Paraguay, Xingu, and Madeira rivers in order to actually get shit done.
I think it unlikely to make streets that cross the whole country, the use of rivers until the creation of trains and cars was the cheapest and most effective form of communication. There's a reason why the bloodiest war in South America was over control of the silver basin.

If someone has the population of Spain at 1500 or 1600 I can calculate the population of the colony.
 
I think it unlikely to make streets that cross the whole country, the use of rivers until the creation of trains and cars was the cheapest and most effective form of communication. There's a reason why the bloodiest war in South America was over control of the silver basin.
I should have probably specified that this is an 1820s or later thing, given how ITTL is several decades "ahead" of OTL in technological advancements. The Indiana Mammoth Internal Improvement Act might be a decent blueprint for what we could get in Brazil. While that was a debacle like nothing else, the scope could be somewhat similar--and the project, having been done in the mid-19th Century, early 19th seems fine for a slightly better-off Brazil mustering up a few canals and railroads in a somewhat "schizo" attempt to link all their big rivers together. What you will see is likely land values in the areas surrounding the turnpikes, canals, and railroads, at minimum, DOUBLE in value, since fucking Indiana saw a 400% increase on average in land values, alongside according drops in transport costs, and crucially, big average increases on profits of agricultural goods. Fruit, cocoa, rubber, gold, diamonds, and even exotic rainforest species will all see their profitability skyrocket. The Brazilian government might be financially ruined for 25 to 40 years in the immediate aftermath, though, and possibly be in massive debt to creditors in Lisbon, Milan, and King's Harbor...
 
Even if the Mesopotamians folded like a wer tissue at the border, that wouldn’t be enough to siege Baghdad would it?

Also interesting to see that the bastards see the Roman throne as theirs, they view themselves as legitimate?

Me thinks I spy an important upcoming plot point.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say they think of themselves as legitimate, but their blood link to Andreas III is certainly much better than that of Demetrios III Sideros.

I wonder what the actual official name/what they call themselves of the ottoman empire is? Sublime ottoman state like otl? Or a version of Eranshahr? Maybe empire of the Iranians and Turks. With the effective persification of the empire AND change of ruling family (although still related to osman if I remember correctly) the latter might fit more

Question: with the Persians being the sole supporter of the Mesopotamian right now and the fact their population are mostly Muslims, wouldnt it be wiser for them to convert?

See the responses already given by other posters.

So maybe he changed his mind and the end of the present crisis is the Koinon of the Greeks sorry Romans under the Archon Prostates. :angel:

Funnily enough, while AH.com has made me much more anti-monarchist over the years, Cromwell and the Protectorate is the one exception. Although that has more to do with my disgust for the Puritans and Presbyterians on the Parliamentary side, who were extreme self-righteous religious fanatics even by the standards of the 1600s. So in that context, I’m anti-Parliamentarian rather than pro-royalist, although I confess to a personal soft spot for Charles II.

I’m still committed to my idea of a future mixed monarchy, where the Roman monarchy still exists and has some delineated power, so it’s not just ceremonial, but is far from absolute. This makes for something different in contrast to just copy-and-pasting OTL political structures. But I’m more attached to the idea now for that ‘it’s different’ aspect than for any liking or sympathy for the concept of monarchy.

Both the human organ and the verb have similar etymologies.

I feel like this says something about men. Not saying what, but I feel it says something.

Hey @Basileus444 what is the population of spain? (and of the other great powers)
ps: great chapter

Here is the most recent compilation, from 1635. Main changes would be drops in HRE population from the war, Lombardy from territorial losses in central Italy, and the Ottoman Empire from the loss of Mesopotamia:

Latin World:

Triple Monarchy total: 22.75 million,
France: 15.5 million
England: 4.5 million
Ireland: 2.75 million

Lombardy 7.5 million
Spain: 9 million
Arles: 6 million
Holy Roman Empire: 26 million
Poland: 4 million
Lotharingia: 4 million
Empire of All the North: 3.5 million
Aragon: 1.5 million
Bernese League: 1 million

Hungary: 4 million

Orthodox World:

Roman heartland: 16.7 million
Sicily: 3.5 million
Egypt: 3.1 million
Vlachia: 1.9 million
Russian States: 28 million


Ottoman Empire: 14 million

(I figure China is comparable to all of Europe combined, so let’s say 120 million. India as a whole is comparable to China or Europe too.)
 
I should have probably specified that this is an 1820s or later thing, given how ITTL is several decades "ahead" of OTL in technological advancements. The Indiana Mammoth Internal Improvement Act might be a decent blueprint for what we could get in Brazil. While that was a debacle like nothing else, the scope could be somewhat similar--and the project, having been done in the mid-19th Century,
Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. As a whole, the geography of South America makes it very difficult to do something like that. Linking the rivers will likely occur through a mixture of trains and roads. Only in the most important rivers something like that will occur (which are close enough).
early 19th seems fine for a slightly better-off Brazil mustering up a few canals and railroads in a somewhat "schizo" attempt to link all their big rivers together.
To be honest, comparing this colony with a slightly improved Brazil is wrong. The colony controls the most fertile land in America (pampas) and controls the Prata basin (allowing production to flow from the entire important part of the colony). The population of the colony is much larger. In 1600 Brazil had a population of 45 thousand and Portugal's population was 1.1M. By my calculations, the colony had a population of 368,000 in 1600 if we take into account the population of Spain (thanks @Basileus444) . In the 17th century if the population has the same growth as otl brazil (which I doubt due to the control of the pampas allowing a high agricultural productivity and therefore a greater population growth) the population of the colony would be 2.5 million. Now when the gold fever occurs, it will be crazy and will strengthen Spain a lot. In relation to OTL Brazil, the population in one hundred years increased 10 times. If this happens, the colony would have 25 million people in 1800 (this is more than OTL, Hapsburg empire in 1800). In addition to controlling the largest gold mines in america the colony for 2 centuries was the region that produced the most diamonds . This is not counting sugar and other extremely valuable products. In the 19th century if it has the same growth as Brazil (which didn't have a crazy growth and didn't have the pampa) the colony will increase 6X times. Giving a population of 147.2 million, slightly more than the OTL Russian empire (approximately 11 million more). This is not a slightly better Brazil, it is a monster. That even though It can't have the same industrialization as the USA due to the smaller amount of coal, there are other things that compensate for this limitation. Provavelemnet will be a competitor with TTL russia and other superpowers. If I had to guess, I would say that the colony/dominion/independent nation will try to colonize a part of Africa.
Another thing is whether the colony will fight for independence or will be expelled by the metropolis due to fear as happened in the united kingdom of portugal and brazil. With Portugal being afraid of becoming a colony/vassal within its own empire. Or TTL Spain will be smart and give something similar to independence making the colony become a domain and focus on other things.
What you will see is likely land values in the areas surrounding the turnpikes, canals, and railroads, at minimum, DOUBLE in value, since fucking Indiana saw a 400% increase on average in land values, alongside according drops in transport costs, and crucially, big average increases on profits of agricultural goods.
jesus 400% is ridiculous
Fruit, cocoa, rubber, gold, diamonds, and even exotic rainforest species will all see their profitability skyrocket. The Brazilian government might be financially ruined for 25 to 40 years in the immediate aftermath, though, and possibly be in massive debt to creditors in Lisbon, Milan, and King's Harbor...
If I had to guess at the beginning of the 1800s the colony would export cattle, sugar, coffee, cotton, tobacco and rubber. With the Plata region starting to take the steps to industrialize.
 
Rhomania's General Crisis, Part 6.0: The Other Players
Rhomania’s General Crisis, part 6.0-The Other Players:

The White Palace, Constantinople, October 6, 1660:

Athena set down her quill, adjusting her cloak more tightly around her body, and looked at the window. Sunlight reflected off the Bosporus, the sheen cut by the two bulks of massive grain haulers working their way to the Golden Horn. Aside from the pair, she could count at least thirty other smaller craft in her view, including a Russian ship flying the Cross of St. Andrew. The latter was probably carrying either furs or metal ingots.

Furs sounded good to her. The chill of approaching winter was already in the air and ever since the assassination attempt, keeping warm was a harder and harder task. The warmth of summer had aided her health, but as the sun’s rays weakened, she could feel her own constitution declining. Were it just herself, she would decamp to Alexandria and enjoy the rays of Egypt, but that was not an option.

The metal ingots undoubtedly sounded good to other people. The Tourmarches had announced the start of the eastern war yesterday, although she’d known about it for some time beforehand. The mood of the capital had been rather indifferent; the Persians weren’t the scary boogeymen the Latins were. The Tourmarches’s hopes for the war would rise or fall based on how well their performance in the war went.

Athena had known about the war plans, but hadn’t done anything to avert them. She might’ve been angry at the destruction of her brother’s legacy, but she had more personal reasons for her rage, and more personal concerns as well.

Setting up a conspiracy was hard, especially if one wanted to make a clean sweep of things and not set off a civil war. The Tourmarches had done quite a good job of securing the capital and environs for their supporters. The one fly in that ointment was the Father and the Bishops Pair as she called them, but while they might be able to stir up a mob, a mob was hardly a precision implement and most unlikely to succeed if that was it. And she considered the Father to be the epitome of a loose cannon.

Athena thus looked to the provinces. Her hope was to build up a massive base of support in the provinces big enough to overawe the war hawks in the capital and end things before they got messy. She had Michael backing her, and strong bases of support in the Macedonian, Helladikon, Thrakesian, Anatolikon, and Syrian themes, which was a good start, but 5 of 11 themes hardly constituted an overwhelming base. It was enough to start a civil war, but not necessarily enough to end one.

But it was proving most difficult. The Tourmarches were being very careful to keep everything legal by ensuring Herakleios III signed off on anything important. That made opposing them treason, and naturally many balked at that, preferring to just follow the proper chain of command. Athena was finding it harder and harder to recruit more supporters, which also ran into the usual problem of conspiracies. The more backers meant a greater chance of success, but also more opportunity for someone to talk beforehand and blow the whole thing.

Manuel Doukas was vital. With the position of Domestikos of the Center vacant, he and Michael were the two Domestikoi in the field, disregarding the Megas Domestikos in the capital. Having them both on her side would do much to sway many over to her, and Manuel had many friends and comrades in important postings even outside his command. With his support, Athena thought she could have 8, maybe even 9, of the 11 themes. That was what she wanted.

But she couldn’t get a good approach on him. She had no personal connection, and the one supporter with best access, Theodoros Sarantenos, the Strategos of Syria, did not get on that well with Doukas. The man was notoriously prickly. An approach to win his support, if he took it as an insult to his loyalty or honor, would make him an implacable enemy. And again, the Tourmarches had legality on their side. Asking him to turn traitor would likely offend him. Essentially, Athena needed the Tourmarches to do something to irritate Doukas, making him more amenable to her offers.

There was a potential opportunity here. She knew Doukas had been promised command in next year’s campaign, but by Doukas’s light that was simply what he was due as Domestikos of the East. He wouldn’t be grateful simply for getting what he was owed. But Athena did know that the Domestikos was not enamored of the surprise plan, which he felt had too many downsides. He would’ve preferred a mass buildup of the typical style, which he could lead himself. Doukas hadn’t pushed the issue this year, focusing instead on recuperating, but if he had to start his command next year by cleaning up a big mess caused by Tourmarches being too clever by half, that might be the irritation Athena needed. But for now, she had to wait.

She might’ve increased the odds of a mess by warning Iskandar, but she hadn’t; it was much too risky. If even a whiff got out that she had connived with a foreign potentate with the goal of killing Romans, she certainly forsook any chance of winning over Manuel. And the loyalty of many of her already-established supporters would become questionable in such an event. Athena needed to avoid being too clever by half as well.

Athena had another reason for moving carefully, three to be precise. Her supporters were in the provinces, but her daughter Sophia and Michael’s two daughters were both here in the capital. She wanted vengeance for her son, but not at the price of her daughter. When the time came, she needed to be able to get them out of Constantinople to safety. Unfortunately, her original contact for this was getting into trouble for gambling debts; she needed another and better option.

Athena looked again out at the window. The sea scape had changed slightly, with ships moving, some disappearing out of view and others entering. One of the newcomers was a finely trimmed Roman naval fregata, smartly making its way south. Athena pulled out another piece of paper and dipped her quill in the inkwell. It was time she renewed her acquaintance with Leo Kalomeros.

* * *​

Southern Isauria, October 7, 1660:

Andreas resisted the urge to shiver. It wasn’t that cold, provided one was moving, but he had been stationary for a time, for quite a long time. He wasn’t sure how long exactly, but enough that he was getting tired of this. But he was curious to see, to experience, these visions of which Konon spoke, hence all the preparations he had undergone with Konon’s supervision.

The only sound Andreas could hear in the stone cell, save that of his own body, was the gentle rhythm of Konon’s breath. The holy man was in the corner, standing motionless, mostly in shadow. Flickering candles gave out a little light, but not nearly enough to illuminate the chamber.

Wait…

“Did you see that?” Andreas asked, his body stiffening. The biggest two toes on his left foot cramped angrily, and he reached down to massage them.

“I did not, my Lord Karaman,” Konon replied.

Despite that answer, Andreas knew he wasn’t imagining this. “I see flames.” As he spoke the fire surrounded him, covering most of the room. Konon seemed enveloped, yet the man did not even twitch. “Do you not see them?”

Konon chuckled. “Of course not. Each vision is a gift of God, and each gift is for the pilgrim alone. This vision is your gift, not mine.”

“I see…someone else. He’s coming towards us.”

Konon smiled; the fire lit him enough that Andreas could easily see that. “I do not need a detailed account. This vision is your gift. Learn from it without distractions, and then tell me later what you wish to share."

Andreas stood up as the third figure approached him. “Hello, brother,” the figure said in a deep male voice, the voice of a commander of men in battle.

“Who are you?” Andreas asked. The man stepped forward. Andreas’s eyes widened and then he dropped to his knees.

“Rise, brother.” Andreas rose. “Look at me.” He did.

“Why do you, of all people, call me brother?” Andreas asked.

The man smiled. “Those who share the same father are brothers. And are we not all children of God?”

* * *​

They were seated around a fire now, in Andreas’s home. He was tearing ravenously into some chicken while Konon slowly ate some bean soup with a side of cheese. “You’ve met him before?” Andreas asked. Konon had told him of his visions, and he’d believed him, and yet hadn’t truly believed him until Andreas had seen him as well.

“Indeed. It is a pity; if he were alive our task would not be necessary. But all men are mortal, and so this falls to us. But we need a third.”

“Why?”

“The best of anything comes in threes. Ravens, stooges…”

“Stooges?”

Konon’s mouth clicked shut. He cocked his head and thought for a moment. “I admit, I have no idea how to explain that one.”

“Right…but you said we need a third. Are you thinking of the same man as I am?”

“If we are speaking of your cousin, then yes. Now a groundskeeper at the tekke of St. Ioannes, but once a Megas Dekarchos, with over forty years of experience in turning shepherds and farm boys into soldiers. Who better to build an army?”

* * *​

Patriarchal Apartments, Constantinople, October 8, 1660:

“I don’t know; this still feels premature,” Manuel Rekas said.

Andronikos Hadjipapandreou set his current ball of cheese down on the table in front of him. “And why is that?”

“We don’t know how the war is proceeding,” Ioannes Grozes answered.

“What does that matter?” The priest looked across the table at the silent Patriarch, whose wrinkled vein-strewn hands were clasped around a cup of kaffos for warmth. “Is a crime suddenly made righteous if it is successful? Is a theft not a theft if the robber managed to get away with his gains?”

“Lady Athena does not think it is wise to act just yet,” Manuel said.

“The time to act against wrong is now, not to wait for some special better time that curiously has a tendency to never show up. How many will die, on both sides, for the sake of a few men’s fear and greed? How many will die if we delay? The time to act against wrong is now.”

“What you ask is a risky thing,” Adam said.

Andronikos looked at the Patriarch, his hard gaze softening. The Patriarch looked like a tired old man, which he was. “I know. I know the dangers. But this is why we are here, now. If not us, who? And if not now, when? If we will not act, salvation will come to the Romans by another means, but we and our house will be destroyed.”

There was silence, and then the Patriarch spoke. “I do not have your strength, Father.” He looked at the pair of bishops. “And I do have your fears. But he is right. A shepherd that does not guard his sheep against a wolf, even one dressed in purple, is a bad shepherd. And evil must be opposed.”

* * *​

On the first Sunday after the invasion of Mesopotamia, the Emperor Herakleios III and his entourage (which includes his mistress but not his wife or aunt, who travel in a separate group) approach the Hagia Sophia for services, as is normal whenever the Emperor is in the capital. But the path is barred, blocked by the Patriarch and supporters, including Father Andronikos Hadjipapandreou.

The Patriarch makes his position quite clear. The Emperor is living in a state of sin, and unrepentant. Clearly only the most extreme measures will make him mend his ways. He must abandon this unjust war, undertaken not to defend the Romans but to steal the lands and lives of others. He must forsake his mistress and undertake proper marital relations with his wife. Until he does these, the Emperor and his advisors encouraging him in such sins will be barred from the Hagia Sophia, a most public rebuke for their crimes.
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
The plot thickens and factions circle as it looks like the Tourmarches might not have the hold on the Empire they think they do. The very public rebuke is not going to be received well by anyone in the Tourmarch faction, especially since the Patriarch of Constantinople is likely the only position even close to the same level of power to the Basileus, if less formal and hard.
 
jesus 400% is ridiculous
And if Brazil proceeds at the pace you say it will, 400% jump in land values gonna seem like fucking chump change.

mind you, this is rural backwater bumfuck Indiana, in the 1840s we’re talking about, with no industrial capacity to speak of. If Brazil is truly so monstrous, quadrupling your land values on average will be a disappointment, I’d expect 700% or even 800%!
 
And if Brazil proceeds at the pace you say it will, 400% jump in land values gonna seem like fucking chump change.

mind you, this is rural backwater bumfuck Indiana, in the 1840s we’re talking about, with no industrial capacity to speak of. If Brazil is truly so monstrous, quadrupling your land values on average will be a disappointment, I’d expect 700% or even 800%!
instead of the fever for gold, there will be a fever for land. Honestly, I have never heard of an 800% increase in my life.
Regarding the population that I calculated, there was no exaggeration or anything like that, I just used the growth calculation of OTL Brazil with the Spanish colony
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
And if Brazil proceeds at the pace you say it will, 400% jump in land values gonna seem like fucking chump change.

mind you, this is rural backwater bumfuck Indiana, in the 1840s we’re talking about, with no industrial capacity to speak of. If Brazil is truly so monstrous, quadrupling your land values on average will be a disappointment, I’d expect 700% or even 800%!
Yep, hell Rhomania, Georgia, and Persia will probably see similar massive land value jumps, if not greater. A lot of currently marginal land, because any food production can't be brought to distant markets cheaply due to transport, if it can before spoilage in the first place, will suddenly be able to service larger and wealthy markets.
 
Yep, hell Rhomania, Georgia, and Persia will probably see similar massive land value jumps, if not greater. A lot of currently marginal land, because any food production can't be brought to distant markets cheaply due to transport, if it can before spoilage in the first place, will suddenly be able to service larger and wealthy markets.
Assuming, of course, they manage to get the desired network of turnpikes and canals done in their outer provinces. Gotta keep 'em safe from bandits, though.
 
Assuming, of course, they manage to get the desired network of turnpikes and canals done in their outer provinces. Gotta keep 'em safe from bandits, though.
Turnpike.....

Publicly financed Roman roads are older technology than Turnpikes and dare I say even better than Turnpike tolls and roads not until an Alt Triune discovers their own form of cement. Roman concrete and Roads are still centuries ahead of whatever the other Europeans can build in 1660s. I suppose Most of Europe still have dirt roads with limited cobblestone roads while the Romans have a lot of Roman highways or roads still being used in 1660s since they know how to repair, maintain and build them. Roman roads are absolutely necessary for war especially in Anatolia to bring Tagmatas from the west to east or vice versa faster.

OTL Romans did have canals built in Italy Britain, Germany and France until it fell to disuse.

I suppose the Moesian Canal is still up in running under the Romans including those Canals under Sicilian control. But I get your point on the Canal craze of the British and USA between late 18th century and 19th century. I believe Pharaoh's Canal in Egypt is still up and running.

I suppose the Romans would be the one building it crazy earlier than the Latins since they are the one with the need, the tech knowhow and the money even as early as 1600s. Bring food faster to Constantinople from interior of Danube or Western Anatolia or Pontic rivers, Cicilian rivers to the ports onward to Constantinople.
 

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
The Patriarch makes his position quite clear. The Emperor is living in a state of sin, and unrepentant. Clearly only the most extreme measures will make him mend his ways. He must abandon this unjust war, undertaken not to defend the Romans but to steal the lands and lives of others. He must forsake his mistress and undertake proper marital relations with his wife. Until he does these, the Emperor and his advisors encouraging him in such sins will be barred from the Hagia Sophia, a most public rebuke for their crimes.
I have a feeling this won't end well
 
Andreas stood up as the third figure approached him. “Hello, brother,” the figure said in a deep male voice, the voice of a commander of men in battle.

“Who are you?” Andreas asked. The man stepped forward. Andreas’s eyes widened and then he dropped to his knees.
Hmm, sounds like Ody or Andreas Niketas
 
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