An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
Any military campaign can encounter problems (primerely because the enemy tends not to be a good sport about you wanting to cave his head in). Timidity brings it's own share of problems though. And since the Imperials had to stop military operations against two Muslim threats because Hungary was feeling frisky, well, nobody should be surprised that they'll come to make their displeasure known.
And anyway, if they can't even handle Hungary, then what is their famous military academy good for?
And anyway, if they can't even handle Hungary, then what is their famous military academy good for?
It's not about "handling" Hungary (although the term implies that hungarians are worth sneering at and that doesn't seem to be the case), it's about over-reach. Even without considering the risks of such a long campaign after so many years of war, the risks of success could even outweigh the risks of defeat, a collapse of Hungary would probably entail more problems that it solves.
And I would think that Hungary was already handled, when all their recent conquests were rolled back and the serbian buffer in place. I think there is such a thing as "too much success". Diminish Hungary too much and other powers won't be happy (and all the wars after Andreas should have thought the romans that they cannot afford too many enemies).
And I would think that Hungary was already handled, when all their recent conquests were rolled back and the serbian buffer in place. I think there is such a thing as "too much success". Diminish Hungary too much and other powers won't be happy (and all the wars after Andreas should have thought the romans that they cannot afford too many enemies).
Basileus444 mentioned that the next few years would have the Romans realize that they're no longer the "top dog" in the region, perhaps the consequences of the Hungarian war could bring about this realization.
I would think that Rhomania's complete and utter humiliation at the hands of Iksander (5 major decisive battles?) would have have put serious doubt into that world view. Heck Demetrios Sideros even compares Iksander to Shah Rukh, and he was unquestionably the most powerful person in the world at the time.
Incidentally B444, when would you say was the apogee of Roman power (After the POD)? I would say it was during the reign of Nikephoros IV before round 2 of the ToT.
True, but then Rhomania has had a powerful rival to the east for well over a thousand years a defeat there seems unlikely to shock them, however the west hasn't been such a rival lately. Oh sure on an academic level Rhomania knows the the HRE, and the Triunes are powerful but the Latins they fight the most often, Hungary and Lombardy, are distinctly weaker then themselves. Rhomania is used to winning against them, and negotiating from a position of strength. If the HRE involves itself and proves capable of even matching an exhausted Rhomania, then that would cause a shift in Rhoman thinking from, Serbia is a buffer between Rhomania and Hungary, towards, Hungary is a buffer between Rhomania and the Holy Roman Empire.
Fair enough, but I would say this. I don't think there has been a point in Roman history since antiquity where almost certain victory (The Romans had almost 100,000 men barreling down Mesopotamia + the Georgians, Ethiopians and Oman), and it slowly and shockingly turning into defeat. By all metrics the Romans should have beaten the Persians even with setbacks, but against all odds they lost. The Romans are used to surviving when the odds are against them, but they very rarely have been in a position where they've been in a position of clear superiority and having the tables turned. I think that in itself would cause doubts for future wars, but obviously not right now since Demetrios is clearly delusional.
I wonder how Helena is feeling about snubbing her first son since Demetrios has been pretty mediocre and a warhawk to boot.
I've just finished off reading the timeline, and it is amazing.
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but what's the possibility of the Ottomans trying to get into the colonial game, if for no other reason than to counter the Roman designs? News of an 'Orthodox Japan' and that of other Roman activity in East Asia must have undoubtedly reached Iskander's ears, and he, or perhaps his successor, could conclude that the Romans, having failed to defeat them on the main front, are now looking to outflank the Ottomans by building up a network of colonies and that the only way to preserve the balance of power against them.
As the 17th century progresses, it could benefit the Ottomans to cultivate a number of colonies or local friendly Muslim kingdoms in Southeast Asia (like a TTL version of Aceh that OTL the Ottomans did have relations with up until the end of their existence) and counter any Roman designs.
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but what's the possibility of the Ottomans trying to get into the colonial game, if for no other reason than to counter the Roman designs? News of an 'Orthodox Japan' and that of other Roman activity in East Asia must have undoubtedly reached Iskander's ears, and he, or perhaps his successor, could conclude that the Romans, having failed to defeat them on the main front, are now looking to outflank the Ottomans by building up a network of colonies and that the only way to preserve the balance of power against them.
As the 17th century progresses, it could benefit the Ottomans to cultivate a number of colonies or local friendly Muslim kingdoms in Southeast Asia (like a TTL version of Aceh that OTL the Ottomans did have relations with up until the end of their existence) and counter any Roman designs.
Evilprodigy
Donor
ITTL Ottomans, unlike their OTL counterparts, are not much of a naval power. It's understandable, given the lack of Lumber along the Persian Gulf. That probably means it would be unlikely for them to set up some colonies. Getting alliances or relations with some eastern Muslim polities in Indonesia would be a good idea though. Iskandar already has a lot of brownie points with the Muslim World as he keeps touting himself as a defender and champion of Islam, plus the Muslims are probably still pissed about what the Romans did to Mecca and the Kaaba. It wouldn't be hard to get some fruitful alliances in the East Indies.
The Inca Empire is mostly isolated from European contact and is doing its own thing, though the last mention of them in the story had them capture some Portuguese trespassers in their borders and contracting smallpox from a carrier. I'd imagine that their empire is undergoing an existential crisis because people are dying by the thousands.
HanEmpire: I don’t have any specific plans for Korea. The problem for Korea though is that Orthodox Japan will still have the same problem as OTL: once the wars of unification end there are a lot of bored and unemployed soldiers lying around, never a good idea. I consider some form of Imjin war practically inevitable.
The Pentarchy is already technically dead in Orthodox eyes. Rome/Avignon is the seat of the arch-heretic. Japan is also autocephalous so it already lies somewhat outside the Pentarchy system already (think OTL Russian Patriarchate).
MarshalofMontival: Nothing specific. A ‘few’ dead merchants isn’t worth antagonizing one of the great powers but it is increasing general anti-Roman animus.
ImperatorAlexander: Yoshihiro is on the other side of the planet so imperial pretensions aren’t a big concern. If he claimed the title ‘Emperor of the Romans’ it would be a different matter but simple ‘Emperor’ is alright. Demetrios is also aware that this is a huge victory for Orthodoxy and doesn’t want anything to happen to mess it up, hence the recognition of Yoshihiro as ‘Emperor of the Rising Sun’ and the promotion of the Metropolitan of Aira to Patriarch.
Shah Iskandar is the Andreas Niketas of the Ottomans, for both good and ill.
I put the Roman apogee at Andreas Niketas’ victory at the Iron Gates just before his death, with a very slight decline from then to the outbreak of the Orthodox War after which things start going downhill in a serious way.
Sir Omega: That is precisely Demetrios’ feeling on the matter. This is a very good thing, let’s not screw it up by quibbling over nomenclature.
I don’t see having Japan having the demographic weight to conquer and hold China (Korea is a different manner). Even if it somehow managed through Chinese incompetence/instability the Japan-China Empire would turn out much like an England-France monarchy. The latter eventually ends up dominating the dual polity by virtue of its vastly greater size. Now Japan could wreck a good portion of China and potentially grab coastal districts.
Pushing into Hungary is risky but right now the Romans are determined to make an example.
JohnSmith: Some of both, hack off pieces to Serbia, Vlachia, and the Lombards, and wreck the remainder.
Friedrich’s struggling but managing to keep chugging along. The Triunes have been quietly backing Karl, although a limited amount. They don’t want a winner; a long slugging match that leaves the eventual winner broken is the best result from their perspective. The Scandinavians have been staying out of the Brothers’ War; they’ve been burned pretty badly the last few times they mucked around in the HRE.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: I don’t see any rationale for Japanese colonies in the New World, sorry. There are too many opportunities in East Asia to bother crossing the Pacific. I am planning for Manila galleons soon though so Japanese samurai will be patrolling the Mexican highways to guard against brigands (just like OTL!).
I haven’t figured out how Iskandar’s succession will work out; I have a few scenarios I’m debating. But the long-term fallout will be…interesting. The Ottomans aren’t the only foreign power eyeing a fishing trip in the waters of northern India.
The Chinese don’t believe they can lose the Mandate (certain dynasties of course but for it to depart China…never). They just consider the Japanese to be idiots and the Romans to be usurping barbarians with pretensions of grandeur.
Babyrage: Economically and demographically the Zeng are much weaker than the Ming, but technologically are similar to the Chinese of OTL. Right now they control everything south of the Yellow River and are attacking north. One innovation of ATL Chinese over OTL is that they’re significantly more xenophobic; some kind of ‘barbarian’ has ruled over some or all of China since the end of the Tang dynasty except for one brief spell between the fall of the Yuan and Shah Rukh’s invasion. They’re rather irritated. It will have all sorts of ripple effects on Central and East Asia.
Timaeus: A combined Roman-Japanese alliance directed against China could hurt it but I still don’t see conquest happening unless it’s an Opium War or more level disparity in technology. China is huge. Even after all the carnage its population is comparable to all of Europe combined, including Rhomania.
Tieh Islam barely pricked the surface of Chinese culture.
PlayerOne: Yeah, I had a hard time seeing an Orthodox Shimazu shogun heavily influenced by Roman culture tolerating a figurehead Emperor. Be honest where the power is and cut out (literally in this case) the middleman.
Arrix85: Yeah, Demetrios is a religious nut. Think St. Louis of France.
Thank you again for the family tree. I’m flattered that you’re willing to spend your free time on that.
There’s some more “calculation” in Demetrios’ decision to invade Hungary proper that I haven’t spelled out yet; it’ll appear in the next update.
Veranius: Thank you.
Mexico and the Incans should both be showing up soon, hopefully by the end of 1610s.
Donald Reaver: King Andrew is also having concerns about German aid but at this point he has little choice. Demetrios’ terms are intolerable.
Duke of Nova Scotia: Agreed. It’s the same problem faced by Herakleios II; it’s an impossible act to follow.
Northern Mesopotamia is up in the air. It has strong connections with the Ottoman state which views it as a high-priority region to hold but the Romans did smash it very badly for precisely the same reason. It’s too important to the Ottomans to give to a buffer state though; they want to administer it directly.
Stark: It’d be a lot of fun, especially the vanilla start of EU4 is 1444, just one year before Andreas Niketas’ birth with Shah Rukh at the height of his power…
Lukeanus: Yeah, Rhomania used to having an eastern rival of comparable or even greater power throughout its whole history, first the Sassanids, then the Arab Caliphates. The Ottomans are just the latest variant of a thousand-year-old theme. But the west being comparable or greater is a different matter. Sure there was the 1100s and 1200s which didn’t cooperate but Demetrios Megas and Andreas Niketas restored the proper way of things…right?
Bmao: Thank you for the praise. An Ottoman-Acehnese alliance would be highly valued by both parties but would have the serious risk of driving the Romans and Vijayanagari into each other’s arms. It would be interesting, in the Chinese sense, to have Rhomania and the Ottomans reprise OTL’s Britain and France in India. It’d suck for the Indians though.
Evilprodigy: Alliances between the Ottomans and Indonesian Muslims is a good idea from both their perspective. Sustaining such contacts though would be extremely difficult since they’d have to run the gauntlet of Omani, Ethiopian, Roman, and Vijayanagari naval power. An alliance between those 4 against an Ottoman-Acehnese-[insert certain Latins] coalition would be rather interesting.
The Pentarchy is already technically dead in Orthodox eyes. Rome/Avignon is the seat of the arch-heretic. Japan is also autocephalous so it already lies somewhat outside the Pentarchy system already (think OTL Russian Patriarchate).
MarshalofMontival: Nothing specific. A ‘few’ dead merchants isn’t worth antagonizing one of the great powers but it is increasing general anti-Roman animus.
ImperatorAlexander: Yoshihiro is on the other side of the planet so imperial pretensions aren’t a big concern. If he claimed the title ‘Emperor of the Romans’ it would be a different matter but simple ‘Emperor’ is alright. Demetrios is also aware that this is a huge victory for Orthodoxy and doesn’t want anything to happen to mess it up, hence the recognition of Yoshihiro as ‘Emperor of the Rising Sun’ and the promotion of the Metropolitan of Aira to Patriarch.
Shah Iskandar is the Andreas Niketas of the Ottomans, for both good and ill.
I put the Roman apogee at Andreas Niketas’ victory at the Iron Gates just before his death, with a very slight decline from then to the outbreak of the Orthodox War after which things start going downhill in a serious way.
Sir Omega: That is precisely Demetrios’ feeling on the matter. This is a very good thing, let’s not screw it up by quibbling over nomenclature.
I don’t see having Japan having the demographic weight to conquer and hold China (Korea is a different manner). Even if it somehow managed through Chinese incompetence/instability the Japan-China Empire would turn out much like an England-France monarchy. The latter eventually ends up dominating the dual polity by virtue of its vastly greater size. Now Japan could wreck a good portion of China and potentially grab coastal districts.
Pushing into Hungary is risky but right now the Romans are determined to make an example.
JohnSmith: Some of both, hack off pieces to Serbia, Vlachia, and the Lombards, and wreck the remainder.
Friedrich’s struggling but managing to keep chugging along. The Triunes have been quietly backing Karl, although a limited amount. They don’t want a winner; a long slugging match that leaves the eventual winner broken is the best result from their perspective. The Scandinavians have been staying out of the Brothers’ War; they’ve been burned pretty badly the last few times they mucked around in the HRE.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: I don’t see any rationale for Japanese colonies in the New World, sorry. There are too many opportunities in East Asia to bother crossing the Pacific. I am planning for Manila galleons soon though so Japanese samurai will be patrolling the Mexican highways to guard against brigands (just like OTL!).
I haven’t figured out how Iskandar’s succession will work out; I have a few scenarios I’m debating. But the long-term fallout will be…interesting. The Ottomans aren’t the only foreign power eyeing a fishing trip in the waters of northern India.
The Chinese don’t believe they can lose the Mandate (certain dynasties of course but for it to depart China…never). They just consider the Japanese to be idiots and the Romans to be usurping barbarians with pretensions of grandeur.
Babyrage: Economically and demographically the Zeng are much weaker than the Ming, but technologically are similar to the Chinese of OTL. Right now they control everything south of the Yellow River and are attacking north. One innovation of ATL Chinese over OTL is that they’re significantly more xenophobic; some kind of ‘barbarian’ has ruled over some or all of China since the end of the Tang dynasty except for one brief spell between the fall of the Yuan and Shah Rukh’s invasion. They’re rather irritated. It will have all sorts of ripple effects on Central and East Asia.
Timaeus: A combined Roman-Japanese alliance directed against China could hurt it but I still don’t see conquest happening unless it’s an Opium War or more level disparity in technology. China is huge. Even after all the carnage its population is comparable to all of Europe combined, including Rhomania.
Tieh Islam barely pricked the surface of Chinese culture.
PlayerOne: Yeah, I had a hard time seeing an Orthodox Shimazu shogun heavily influenced by Roman culture tolerating a figurehead Emperor. Be honest where the power is and cut out (literally in this case) the middleman.
Arrix85: Yeah, Demetrios is a religious nut. Think St. Louis of France.
Thank you again for the family tree. I’m flattered that you’re willing to spend your free time on that.
There’s some more “calculation” in Demetrios’ decision to invade Hungary proper that I haven’t spelled out yet; it’ll appear in the next update.
Veranius: Thank you.
Mexico and the Incans should both be showing up soon, hopefully by the end of 1610s.
Donald Reaver: King Andrew is also having concerns about German aid but at this point he has little choice. Demetrios’ terms are intolerable.
Duke of Nova Scotia: Agreed. It’s the same problem faced by Herakleios II; it’s an impossible act to follow.
Northern Mesopotamia is up in the air. It has strong connections with the Ottoman state which views it as a high-priority region to hold but the Romans did smash it very badly for precisely the same reason. It’s too important to the Ottomans to give to a buffer state though; they want to administer it directly.
Stark: It’d be a lot of fun, especially the vanilla start of EU4 is 1444, just one year before Andreas Niketas’ birth with Shah Rukh at the height of his power…
Lukeanus: Yeah, Rhomania used to having an eastern rival of comparable or even greater power throughout its whole history, first the Sassanids, then the Arab Caliphates. The Ottomans are just the latest variant of a thousand-year-old theme. But the west being comparable or greater is a different matter. Sure there was the 1100s and 1200s which didn’t cooperate but Demetrios Megas and Andreas Niketas restored the proper way of things…right?
Bmao: Thank you for the praise. An Ottoman-Acehnese alliance would be highly valued by both parties but would have the serious risk of driving the Romans and Vijayanagari into each other’s arms. It would be interesting, in the Chinese sense, to have Rhomania and the Ottomans reprise OTL’s Britain and France in India. It’d suck for the Indians though.
Evilprodigy: Alliances between the Ottomans and Indonesian Muslims is a good idea from both their perspective. Sustaining such contacts though would be extremely difficult since they’d have to run the gauntlet of Omani, Ethiopian, Roman, and Vijayanagari naval power. An alliance between those 4 against an Ottoman-Acehnese-[insert certain Latins] coalition would be rather interesting.
Damn, that sucks.
How about this instead of the Japanese eating the stupid pill and invading Korea?
Maybe you could instead have the Shimazu fail to consolidate their Imperial Power, and suffer some major civil war against rivals in Japan; a period of brutal warfare fueled by religious/cultural zeal on both sides, with the "innovation" of deliberately targeting peasants with the hopes of starving the opposing side (unless I'm mistaken the Sengoku era warlords generally tried to keep peasants alive so that they could pay taxes once conquered).
Exhaustion and perhaps the rise of some middling rival state on Honshu could go a long way into keeping the Shimazu from a foreign adventure, instead putting their efforts into reconstruction, repopulation, and integration/consolidation. Religious Unity would be a good thing too.
Here's the link to the family tree, if anyone is interested (it's easy to see why the War of succession will be a global, messy one)
https://db.tt/K4dwXuk7
I put it on dropbox, you have to download the file to see correctly (if not the format is askew). If anyone knows a better way to share it let me know.
https://db.tt/K4dwXuk7
I put it on dropbox, you have to download the file to see correctly (if not the format is askew). If anyone knows a better way to share it let me know.
Dang. Then again, I'm looking forward to a very outward and Maritime Japan. I wonder if they'll adopt the Roman Thematic System to replace the Daiymo in the centralisation process. Or a variant that works with the Samurai class. I wonder if the Japanese will have to fight an alt-Admiral Yi when they inevitably invade Korea. (If they can get a Roman Sea-Lord to assist them in tactics/strategy, that might help, as they seemed to be rather useless IOTL).
If Japan is going to go Imperial on the coast, that might be a way to weaken/scatter the Daimyo, by making a Samurai Bureaucracy in Korea as a test lab, then bringing it to Kyushu to handle trade, then Shikoku, and then to replace any rebellious Daimyo.
The idea of old-school Japanese fortresses in Manchuria sounds pretty cool to me. Solid, robust, with added cannons, vs steppe tribes that haven't a chance in hell of climbing essentially a giant hill and conquering the fortress while under fire.
I do hope China will learn. Bwhahahahahahaha (I won't lie, a Japan with Korea, Manchuria and the North China Plain as additional territories would be a powerhouse. A powerhouse with a serious rebel threat, but a powerhouse none the less.)
1614, the Fall of Hungary
HanEmpire: Shimazu having to expend a lot of effort to consolidate their authority is another option (they’ll have to do that anyway). The Romans too are also seeing a large pool of trained manpower that can be tapped for their own uses given sufficient shiny incentives.
Arrix85: Thank you very much for doing this. In my defense I’ve been trying to follow early modern European dynastic trends but….dear God, what have I done?...was my first reaction.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: I don’t have much planned for Japan right now. Manchuria though is going to get interested as within the next 50 or so years the Khazars will be in the neighborhood.
Person123: China will be getting relief soon.
1614: The size of the Roman armament, under the personal command of the Megas Domestikos Anastasios Drakos-Komnenos, which surges into Hungary that summer is described hysterically by some contemporary Hungarian chroniclers at the absurd but oddly precisely figure of 517,451. Exactly where that number comes nobody knows. At this stage a combat contingent a tenth of that size is much more likely.
Waiting for Polish and Bohemian reinforcements and pleading with Emperor Friedrich personally for aid, King Andrew does not oppose the Romans on the frontier. Still, harassed by Hungarian and Croat Hussars and suffering from supply difficulties in the marshy terrain, Roman progress is slow.
On August 17th the Hungarian army commanded personally by King Andrew finally moves forward to challenge the Roman invaders. The forces under his command are quite formidable, the Black Army of Hungary twenty thousand strong, another eight thousand Hungarian infantry, four thousand German mercenaries, all well-armed veterans, four thousand Bohemian troops, also veterans from the Brothers’ War, plus eleven thousand Poles which include seven thousand heavy-armored cavalry.
Furthermore Andrew has a tentative promise of aid from the Emperor Friedrich, alarmed and annoyed by the presence of Roman agents in Austria. With the fall of Saxony and the defection of Bohemia, his brother’s days are numbered. The Bavarian Emperor is still not quite yet in a position to intervene directly but his support helps explain Andrew’s success in recruiting German and Bohemian troops.
Considering the possibility of substantial German reinforcements, Andrew’s decision to confront the Romans at first seems surprising. But despite the supply difficulties the Romans show no signs of stopping. Furthermore he is concerned now that having the Germans help him repulse the Romans might just be inviting one bear into his country to help throw out another. The end result for Hungary would be the same.
Despite the power assembled under his banner, the Roman armament facing opposite him on the plains of Mohacs is even greater. For the first time since the battle of Cannae during the reign of Andreas Niketas himself the full force of the guard tagmata is assembled on one field, the Athanatoi, the Varangoi, the Skolai, and the Akoimetoi. The Macedonian, Thracian, Opsikian, Optimatic, and Thrakesian tagmata are gathered as well, sixty six thousand total. Marching alongside them are ten thousand Vlach infantry and two thousand cavalry.
An attempt to jam up the Roman army and beat it in detail by attacking the van while it works its way through the marshes has some initial success, routing several detachments of Roman akrites working as skirmishers. A prompt counter-charge by the Akoimetoi backed by the 4th, 5th, and 10th Macedonian tourmai and the 5th Thrakesian smashes in the nose of the Hungarian van and drives it back before the Magyar reserves can intervene. The 8,400 Romans under the command of Leo Neokastrites proceed to beat off three more Hungarian attacks, giving the rest of the Roman army enough time to deploy out of the marshes.
By this point it is two in the afternoon. Battle becomes general a half hour later. An offensive launched by the Thracian and Opsikian tagmata is caught in a scrum by the Black Army and the Poles and badly punished, the Poles surging on in a great charge that carves a bloody swath through the Roman akrites until Macedonian fusillades begin cracking their skulls.
Meanwhile a furious firefight between the guard tagmata and the Bohemian/German mercenaries gradually chews through the latter while the Optimatic tagma curls around the Hungarian flank. The Optimates surge ahead as the guard kataphraktoi and turkopouloi, accompanied by the Vlach horse, pounce. At this point it is about four.
In less than twenty minutes the right third of the Hungarian army is annihilated as a fighting force, the center routing as the Thrakesian infantry pile into them. The exception is the Black Army, which holds out for another hour and a half despite being outnumbered over 2 to 1 by the Roman forces opposing it directly, before it is enveloped and annihilated in turn.
The losses on the Hungarian side are nothing less than catastrophic, close to nineteen thousand killed, wounded, and captured. The Black Army, by far the most formidable section of the Magyar army, is smashed beyond repair. And one of those slain, found dead face-down in a ditch in his golden armor, is King Andrew.
Andrew’s successor is his seven-year-old grandson Stephan, his son Bela having pre-deceased him because of the plague five years earlier. Stephan’s mother also died during the same outbreak so one would think that Stephan’s grandmother would take charge of the regency. Said grandmother is Theodora Drakina, youngest daughter of Empress Helena and little sister of Emperor Demetrios. Both Constantinople and Buda have studiously pretended to forget her existence since the outbreak of hostilities.
That is no longer possible but what is left of the Magyar nobility is not going to tolerate a regency headed by a ‘Greek’ princess. The Count of Pec, the Archbishop of Kalocsa, and the Voivode of Transylvania immediately begin bickering over who should take charge instead. Whilst the crown jewels, treasury, and court are hurried out of Buda to take refuge in Gyor little is done in the chaos to ensure an adequate defense of the capital. Included in the convoy is the Dowager Queen Theodora, although reports of her abuse by the Archbishop are almost certainly Roman propaganda.
The Roman army appears before the ramparts of Buda in a thoroughly foul mood. They took six thousand casualties of their own at Mohacs, the supply situation is even worse, dysentery is rearing its foul head, and the stings of hussar attacks show no signs of abating despite the victory. An initial sally by the garrison (mostly hastily drafted locals leavened with a few pardoned brigands) captures some Roman skirmishers and in a show of bravado or stupidity hurls said captives to their deaths from the ramparts.
A second sally though the next day is ambushed and cut to pieces, the panicked survivors fleeing back with the Romans hot on their heels. The gates are not closed in time.
Better to have been an inhabitant of Smyrna on the Black Day than to have lived in Buda when the Roman soldiers come pouring through the defenses. The common brutality of soldiers and the frustrations of the campaign are bad enough. But they are joined in the Romans by the seething hatred of the Romans for the Latins.
It is a sentiment long latent but given new potency in the early years of Helena’s reign as she and her sisters worked to improve relations with the kingdoms of the west. Despite the political rationale behind it, it is a policy that disgusts the Romans. The wounds of the Fourth Crusade and the Black Day, the War of the Five Emperors and the Time of Troubles, are still there. Despite the frustrations of Islamic relations, the noble figure of Shahanshah Iskandar has nevertheless won the admiration and respect of the Roman people.
In a way, he encapsulates the love-hate relationship between Rhomania and Islam going all the way back to the early 900s when the Patriarch of Constantinople Nicholas Mystikos said in a letter to the Abbasid Caliph that the Empire and the Caliphate were the two polities ‘which stand above all lordship on earth’ and that therefore they were ‘brothers superior to and preferred above their brethren’. Certainly such attitudes on either side are not guaranteed or even common, but there is always an undertone of respect and even admiration even if frequently dormant. “Go to the land of the Rum, for there be beauty unlike anywhere else on earth” wrote an Ottoman court poet during the Time of Troubles, continuing a centuries-old Muslim tradition of respect for Roman capacity for beauty and craftsmanship (and women).
But the Latin…they were supposed to be brothers in the faith. But instead there has been backstabbing and betrayal. The memory of Kallierges rings out strongly in the Roman psyche. Perhaps the bitterness over the wounds caused by the Latins compared to those inflicted by the Muslims is that the former came from those who should have been friends and brothers. Certainly the Romans have learned and borrowed much from the west, particularly the Italians, but one valuing their teeth would be wise not to say so out loud. To the people on the street the Latins are the scourge of God, a murderous, devouring people whose only god is gold.
The pent-up Roman hatred bursts forth in a sickening volcano. The population of Buda normally is around forty thousand but with refugees from the countryside was close to double that when the city fell. For four days they are subjected to a barrage of mass rapine, pillage, and slaughter, made all by the more horrifying by the systematic approach. Although whether or not it was organized from the top, the Roman atrocities are not random and disorganized. The Roman soldiers work through each district thoroughly and orderly.
The one section of Buda to be spared is the great library of the Kings of Hungary, the largest in Europe after the Imperial library in Constantinople. Its contents are carefully packed up and carted off to enlarge those of the Queen of Cities.
The city of Pest, safe for the moment on the other side of the Danube, watches in horror. The citizens of Pest wisely, albeit unheroically, make no attempt to rescue people on the opposite shore, thus avoiding Roman wrath spilling onto them. The city surrenders peacefully five days after Buda falls, accepting a Roman garrison and paying a substantial fee in coinage and also in grain, sheep, cheese, and wine. The occupation here is therefore comparatively quiet now that the Roman soldiery are somewhat calmed down, with any thought of disturbance quelled when the citizens are conscripted into digging mass graves for the dead of Buda.
Latin Europe is horrified by Buda. Even by the standards of city sacking Buda seems excessive, although some of the more lurid details may have been fabrications. Was it really true that Roman soldiers had spread out swords, points upwards, and thrown infants down on them while placing wagers on which blade they’d be skewered?
In Rhomania and Vlachia though celebrations run wild, with races in the Hippodrome and fireworks over the Golden Horn. After the years of frustrations and debacles in North Africa, Mesopotamia, and the trans-Aras, here is an unequivocal triumph. That the Latins have been clearly reminded of the might of the Empire makes it ever sweeter.
The campaigning season effectively ends with the captures of Buda and Pest, but winter negotiations go nowhere. Roman garrisons are installed throughout occupied Hungary. Meanwhile the Voivode of Transylvania, Janos Zapolya, secures control of the regency in early December. Given that his power base is in significant danger of being handed over to the Vlachs as the war stands now, he places his hope in the Emperor Friedrich. A fugitive Duke Karl is murdered on November 27th by a Pomeranian blacksmith after he is caught stealing some sausages for food. The Holy Roman Emperor is now Duke of Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg, and Schleswig-Holstein. No prince in the Reich has a hope of challenging him now.
Furthermore the six-year truce signed with Iskandar at Khlat is due to expire. Negotiations are underway to renew the accord but that is no guarantee they’ll succeed. So Janos can comfort himself that the situation is not necessarily as dire as it might appear. But on the other, Mohacs still tore the heart out of the Magyar nation. At this point, its survival could depend on the Germans and the Turks. For a proud people with a noble and distinguished history, that is possibly the hardest blow of all.
Arrix85: Thank you very much for doing this. In my defense I’ve been trying to follow early modern European dynastic trends but….dear God, what have I done?...was my first reaction.
RogueTraderEnthusiast: I don’t have much planned for Japan right now. Manchuria though is going to get interested as within the next 50 or so years the Khazars will be in the neighborhood.
Person123: China will be getting relief soon.
1614: The size of the Roman armament, under the personal command of the Megas Domestikos Anastasios Drakos-Komnenos, which surges into Hungary that summer is described hysterically by some contemporary Hungarian chroniclers at the absurd but oddly precisely figure of 517,451. Exactly where that number comes nobody knows. At this stage a combat contingent a tenth of that size is much more likely.
Waiting for Polish and Bohemian reinforcements and pleading with Emperor Friedrich personally for aid, King Andrew does not oppose the Romans on the frontier. Still, harassed by Hungarian and Croat Hussars and suffering from supply difficulties in the marshy terrain, Roman progress is slow.
On August 17th the Hungarian army commanded personally by King Andrew finally moves forward to challenge the Roman invaders. The forces under his command are quite formidable, the Black Army of Hungary twenty thousand strong, another eight thousand Hungarian infantry, four thousand German mercenaries, all well-armed veterans, four thousand Bohemian troops, also veterans from the Brothers’ War, plus eleven thousand Poles which include seven thousand heavy-armored cavalry.
Furthermore Andrew has a tentative promise of aid from the Emperor Friedrich, alarmed and annoyed by the presence of Roman agents in Austria. With the fall of Saxony and the defection of Bohemia, his brother’s days are numbered. The Bavarian Emperor is still not quite yet in a position to intervene directly but his support helps explain Andrew’s success in recruiting German and Bohemian troops.
Considering the possibility of substantial German reinforcements, Andrew’s decision to confront the Romans at first seems surprising. But despite the supply difficulties the Romans show no signs of stopping. Furthermore he is concerned now that having the Germans help him repulse the Romans might just be inviting one bear into his country to help throw out another. The end result for Hungary would be the same.
Despite the power assembled under his banner, the Roman armament facing opposite him on the plains of Mohacs is even greater. For the first time since the battle of Cannae during the reign of Andreas Niketas himself the full force of the guard tagmata is assembled on one field, the Athanatoi, the Varangoi, the Skolai, and the Akoimetoi. The Macedonian, Thracian, Opsikian, Optimatic, and Thrakesian tagmata are gathered as well, sixty six thousand total. Marching alongside them are ten thousand Vlach infantry and two thousand cavalry.
An attempt to jam up the Roman army and beat it in detail by attacking the van while it works its way through the marshes has some initial success, routing several detachments of Roman akrites working as skirmishers. A prompt counter-charge by the Akoimetoi backed by the 4th, 5th, and 10th Macedonian tourmai and the 5th Thrakesian smashes in the nose of the Hungarian van and drives it back before the Magyar reserves can intervene. The 8,400 Romans under the command of Leo Neokastrites proceed to beat off three more Hungarian attacks, giving the rest of the Roman army enough time to deploy out of the marshes.
By this point it is two in the afternoon. Battle becomes general a half hour later. An offensive launched by the Thracian and Opsikian tagmata is caught in a scrum by the Black Army and the Poles and badly punished, the Poles surging on in a great charge that carves a bloody swath through the Roman akrites until Macedonian fusillades begin cracking their skulls.
Meanwhile a furious firefight between the guard tagmata and the Bohemian/German mercenaries gradually chews through the latter while the Optimatic tagma curls around the Hungarian flank. The Optimates surge ahead as the guard kataphraktoi and turkopouloi, accompanied by the Vlach horse, pounce. At this point it is about four.
In less than twenty minutes the right third of the Hungarian army is annihilated as a fighting force, the center routing as the Thrakesian infantry pile into them. The exception is the Black Army, which holds out for another hour and a half despite being outnumbered over 2 to 1 by the Roman forces opposing it directly, before it is enveloped and annihilated in turn.
The losses on the Hungarian side are nothing less than catastrophic, close to nineteen thousand killed, wounded, and captured. The Black Army, by far the most formidable section of the Magyar army, is smashed beyond repair. And one of those slain, found dead face-down in a ditch in his golden armor, is King Andrew.
Andrew’s successor is his seven-year-old grandson Stephan, his son Bela having pre-deceased him because of the plague five years earlier. Stephan’s mother also died during the same outbreak so one would think that Stephan’s grandmother would take charge of the regency. Said grandmother is Theodora Drakina, youngest daughter of Empress Helena and little sister of Emperor Demetrios. Both Constantinople and Buda have studiously pretended to forget her existence since the outbreak of hostilities.
That is no longer possible but what is left of the Magyar nobility is not going to tolerate a regency headed by a ‘Greek’ princess. The Count of Pec, the Archbishop of Kalocsa, and the Voivode of Transylvania immediately begin bickering over who should take charge instead. Whilst the crown jewels, treasury, and court are hurried out of Buda to take refuge in Gyor little is done in the chaos to ensure an adequate defense of the capital. Included in the convoy is the Dowager Queen Theodora, although reports of her abuse by the Archbishop are almost certainly Roman propaganda.
The Roman army appears before the ramparts of Buda in a thoroughly foul mood. They took six thousand casualties of their own at Mohacs, the supply situation is even worse, dysentery is rearing its foul head, and the stings of hussar attacks show no signs of abating despite the victory. An initial sally by the garrison (mostly hastily drafted locals leavened with a few pardoned brigands) captures some Roman skirmishers and in a show of bravado or stupidity hurls said captives to their deaths from the ramparts.
A second sally though the next day is ambushed and cut to pieces, the panicked survivors fleeing back with the Romans hot on their heels. The gates are not closed in time.
Better to have been an inhabitant of Smyrna on the Black Day than to have lived in Buda when the Roman soldiers come pouring through the defenses. The common brutality of soldiers and the frustrations of the campaign are bad enough. But they are joined in the Romans by the seething hatred of the Romans for the Latins.
It is a sentiment long latent but given new potency in the early years of Helena’s reign as she and her sisters worked to improve relations with the kingdoms of the west. Despite the political rationale behind it, it is a policy that disgusts the Romans. The wounds of the Fourth Crusade and the Black Day, the War of the Five Emperors and the Time of Troubles, are still there. Despite the frustrations of Islamic relations, the noble figure of Shahanshah Iskandar has nevertheless won the admiration and respect of the Roman people.
In a way, he encapsulates the love-hate relationship between Rhomania and Islam going all the way back to the early 900s when the Patriarch of Constantinople Nicholas Mystikos said in a letter to the Abbasid Caliph that the Empire and the Caliphate were the two polities ‘which stand above all lordship on earth’ and that therefore they were ‘brothers superior to and preferred above their brethren’. Certainly such attitudes on either side are not guaranteed or even common, but there is always an undertone of respect and even admiration even if frequently dormant. “Go to the land of the Rum, for there be beauty unlike anywhere else on earth” wrote an Ottoman court poet during the Time of Troubles, continuing a centuries-old Muslim tradition of respect for Roman capacity for beauty and craftsmanship (and women).
But the Latin…they were supposed to be brothers in the faith. But instead there has been backstabbing and betrayal. The memory of Kallierges rings out strongly in the Roman psyche. Perhaps the bitterness over the wounds caused by the Latins compared to those inflicted by the Muslims is that the former came from those who should have been friends and brothers. Certainly the Romans have learned and borrowed much from the west, particularly the Italians, but one valuing their teeth would be wise not to say so out loud. To the people on the street the Latins are the scourge of God, a murderous, devouring people whose only god is gold.
The pent-up Roman hatred bursts forth in a sickening volcano. The population of Buda normally is around forty thousand but with refugees from the countryside was close to double that when the city fell. For four days they are subjected to a barrage of mass rapine, pillage, and slaughter, made all by the more horrifying by the systematic approach. Although whether or not it was organized from the top, the Roman atrocities are not random and disorganized. The Roman soldiers work through each district thoroughly and orderly.
The one section of Buda to be spared is the great library of the Kings of Hungary, the largest in Europe after the Imperial library in Constantinople. Its contents are carefully packed up and carted off to enlarge those of the Queen of Cities.
The city of Pest, safe for the moment on the other side of the Danube, watches in horror. The citizens of Pest wisely, albeit unheroically, make no attempt to rescue people on the opposite shore, thus avoiding Roman wrath spilling onto them. The city surrenders peacefully five days after Buda falls, accepting a Roman garrison and paying a substantial fee in coinage and also in grain, sheep, cheese, and wine. The occupation here is therefore comparatively quiet now that the Roman soldiery are somewhat calmed down, with any thought of disturbance quelled when the citizens are conscripted into digging mass graves for the dead of Buda.
Latin Europe is horrified by Buda. Even by the standards of city sacking Buda seems excessive, although some of the more lurid details may have been fabrications. Was it really true that Roman soldiers had spread out swords, points upwards, and thrown infants down on them while placing wagers on which blade they’d be skewered?
In Rhomania and Vlachia though celebrations run wild, with races in the Hippodrome and fireworks over the Golden Horn. After the years of frustrations and debacles in North Africa, Mesopotamia, and the trans-Aras, here is an unequivocal triumph. That the Latins have been clearly reminded of the might of the Empire makes it ever sweeter.
The campaigning season effectively ends with the captures of Buda and Pest, but winter negotiations go nowhere. Roman garrisons are installed throughout occupied Hungary. Meanwhile the Voivode of Transylvania, Janos Zapolya, secures control of the regency in early December. Given that his power base is in significant danger of being handed over to the Vlachs as the war stands now, he places his hope in the Emperor Friedrich. A fugitive Duke Karl is murdered on November 27th by a Pomeranian blacksmith after he is caught stealing some sausages for food. The Holy Roman Emperor is now Duke of Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg, and Schleswig-Holstein. No prince in the Reich has a hope of challenging him now.
Furthermore the six-year truce signed with Iskandar at Khlat is due to expire. Negotiations are underway to renew the accord but that is no guarantee they’ll succeed. So Janos can comfort himself that the situation is not necessarily as dire as it might appear. But on the other, Mohacs still tore the heart out of the Magyar nation. At this point, its survival could depend on the Germans and the Turks. For a proud people with a noble and distinguished history, that is possibly the hardest blow of all.
Rhomania need a strong trustful ally to guard his right flank... so give Transylvania to Wallachia!
The Emperor which would give them that will be painted on the church walls with a golden aura around his head all over lands were the Vlachs lives.
On the other hand, this movement is intelligent, coupled with strengthen Serbia and maybe splitting off Croatia (if possible) as the empire could not occupy Hungary proper and after this sack... there could not be any future friendship between them.
The Emperor which would give them that will be painted on the church walls with a golden aura around his head all over lands were the Vlachs lives.
On the other hand, this movement is intelligent, coupled with strengthen Serbia and maybe splitting off Croatia (if possible) as the empire could not occupy Hungary proper and after this sack... there could not be any future friendship between them.
Someone please remind me, who is Kallierges?
EDIT: Ah found it, nevermind:
I think this should be the King of Bavaria.
EDIT:
I think a massive civil war is guaranteed at this point. The whole office of the Emperor and its unbroken line of succession was the true unifying factor in Japanese culture at this time. It's a constant reminder that all of Japan is supposed to be one, that the natural state of things is for people to know their place and fulfill their social roles under the aegis of the Emperor (however fictional that may be). It's why the Emperor was always given the lip-service of loyalty and service despite the series of Shogun warlords coming to power time and again.
For the Shimazu to just up and end that line & system and replace it with themselves is one of the most upsetting act of usurpation ever. Add on an alien foreign religion and a sudden drive to replace feudalism with centralization, and now you have a burning powder-keg. I foresee tons of assassinations and revolts.
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nope, it shouldn't. the title king of bavaria is a napoleonic creation. before 1806 bavaria was a duchy. and afaik there hasn't yet been an equivalent title creation ittl.
giod chapter, though the excessive sack is gonna come back to bite the romans pretty soon i wager.