American Revolutionary War ends in a Stalemate

If the American Revolution ends in a stalemate, which states would remain British

  • New York

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • New Jersey

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • Middle States (Pennsylvania/Delaware/Maryland)

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • North Carolina

    Votes: 6 16.7%
  • South Carolina

    Votes: 12 33.3%
  • Georgia

    Votes: 21 58.3%
  • Floridas

    Votes: 17 47.2%
  • Scattered Ports (New York, Norfolk, Wilmington, Charleston etc)

    Votes: 9 25.0%
  • All of the Above

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • None of the Above

    Votes: 5 13.9%

  • Total voters
    36
Recently got into the American Revolutionary war, and am fascinated by the maximalist alternate histories presented here-several fascinating books, numerous articles and untold thousands of posts have been presented which see a total British victory which strongly underestimates Patriot resilience and resolve, undoes about fifteen years' worth of history at Saratoga, a reverse Yorktown, a failed crossing of the Delaware etc and somehow leads to a 100% victory and complete lack of resistance-a-la-Marion/Sumter/Pickens/Mel Gibson sorts

Earliest point of divergence being after the Siege of Boston, Do you think colonies like New York, New Jersey, Georgia or South Carolina who had a large (Or even dominant) loyalist population could have remained part of the Empire had Howe/Clinton/Cornwallis/Local commanders played their cards right? And if so which ones are more likely than others?

I'm fascinated with how much of a difference having even just Georgia and the Floridas remain British at wars' end, creating a Southern Canada of sorts if the military situation had been different, or if Dunmore had just fortified Norfolk and held out-would Norfolk still be British Today? Would a New England separated by Loyalist colonies eventually become independent/pro-British/something else?
 
Also, distinct from the question itself, here are the findings of my research on the topic, useful or not

I believe a 100% win to be rather unlikely. Having looked through at centers of Loyalist support, their influence and conduct during the war in each colony, the relative amounts of Patriots and Loyalists raised and the extent of British commitment to the war and come to the following conclusions:

France was practically guaranteed to join the war: Britain was isolated in Europe, heavily committed to the Revolutionary War, While France was emboldened by the Corsican Crisis, embittered by the Falklands affair and wanted revenge, but more than anything else to knock Britain off the top spot (Same for Spain)-now the Armada of 1779 would be a fascinating alt-history but that's for another thread

New England (Possibly sans Vermont/NE Maine) was not coming back to Britain: The colonies had their own government, Connecticut's own governor Trumbull sided with the Patriots as did former Rhode Island governors, Britain had alienated the loggers, the merchants, the sailors and the idealists of whom New England consisted in 1763-75 to the point of practically no return. Rhode Island raised more units in one year for the patriots than all of New England did for the Loyalists over the course of the entire war. Even acknowledged "good" Governors like New Hampshire's John Wentworth failed

New York was Loyalist Central, all the sources I find have New York loyalists coming out of their ears, despite a few high-profile New York patriots the tenant-landlord-patrician structure of the province meant it was more likely to stay the same, combined with the mercantile interests which had not been harmed by the laws that alienated New England

The Middle Colonies are tricky, New Jersey seems split down the middle, Pennsylvania perhaps leaning towards neutrality, Delaware is straightforward-Newcastle is overwhelmingly Patriot while Kent and Sussex were more or less Loyalist, the same can be said for all of southern Delmarva really, while Maryland remains a mystery.

There was no taking Virginia back from the Patriots. Dunmore tried, and failed, while the elite of the state were firmly committed to the Patriot cause, indeed leading it, and aside considering that Norfolk, the freed slaves and back-country folk constituted the loyalists of the province-its' incredibly unlikely that they could control the interior short of a very imaginative and maximalist alt-history

The Southern States were split right down the middle, having broken out in civil war in 1775-6 during which committed patriots and committed loyalists (Rather than those just pressed into service or going with the Status quo) were about even during the battles of Savage's old fields and Moore's creek bridge, while even after 4-5 years of patriot domination a substantial amount joined (or went over to) the loyalist militias. Also read somewhere about the Paris peace negotiations that Georgia's fate depended largely on the military situation on the ground-with Loyalists and Freed slaves outnumbering the local Patriots only overwhelming troop numbers from Virginia and the Carolinas turned the tide

As Always, I welcome sources which support/disprove any of the above

(This may have to be broken down into a series of smaller AltHistory discussions)
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Can we make a case that the OTL Revolutionary War was a stalemate,

especially since the War of 1812 can be viewed as a second American Revolution?
 
Can we make a case that the OTL Revolutionary War was a stalemate,

especially since the War of 1812 can be viewed as a second American Revolution?

Well, I'd say the Revolutionary War was pretty complete-the 13 colonies had achieved just about all of their objectives, as had the French and Spanish. While one could argue that militarily Britain gave as good as it got, Washington's Fabian tactics won him the war-wisely so.

Sure, one didn't have US troops parading around London, York, Coventry and Lincoln, alongside their French and radical Whig allies-but after Paine's Common Sense, the Continentals had achieved everything-while Britain just about managed to win in India, South Africa and the Caribbean


Regarding the war of 1812, one could see it as a continuation of the American Revolution, but perhaps more fittingly as its' conclusion rather than be held on equal ground. Now that war was a proper stalemate, practically textbook definition of one
 
I can't imagine the American Independence War ending inconclusively. Either the colonists are defeated decisively, or Britain gives up and Loyalists are forced to flee.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's some useful posts above, but there's an elephant in the room - the American revolutionaries knew they were winning, as their decisions to turn down the various British peace offers in 1775-81 makes clear.

Ironically, if the British had been willing to offer what they did DURING the war BEFORE the war, they might have been accepted; as it was, each successive offer gave the Americans more autonomy, if not outright independence, and so indicate pretty clearly where the political, economic, and demographic trend lines were going... And so the Americans were confident enough to turn them all down.

The other issue is simply that the return on trying to hold onto Western Hemisphere territories with significant populations, especially those on the mainland(s), generally didn't pencil out for European powers in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries, as witness the retreat of the British, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Russian, and even Danish colonial holdings and the collapse of the "late" attempts at European imperialism in Latin America, notably those of France and Spain in the 1860s.

It was an age of nationalism, on both sides of the Atlantic; expecting anything less from "Western" people's at this point in history is swimming against the current, so to speak.

Best,
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Regarding George Washington's Fabian tactics,

in baseball terms, can we say he pitched a good game and avoided giving a meatball right down the middle?
 
There's some useful posts above, but there's an elephant in the room - the American revolutionaries knew they were winning, as their decisions to turn down the various British peace offers in 1775-81 makes clear.

Ironically, if the British had been willing to offer what they did DURING the war BEFORE the war, they might have been accepted; as it was, each successive offer gave the Americans more autonomy, if not outright independence, and so indicate pretty clearly where the political, economic, and demographic trend lines were going... And so the Americans were confident enough to turn them all down.

The other issue is simply that the return on trying to hold onto Western Hemisphere territories with significant populations, especially those on the mainland(s), generally didn't pencil out for European powers in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries, as witness the retreat of the British, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Russian, and even Danish colonial holdings and the collapse of the "late" attempts at European imperialism in Latin America, notably those of France and Spain in the 1860s.

It was an age of nationalism, on both sides of the Atlantic; expecting anything less from "Western" people's at this point in history is swimming against the current, so to speak.

Best,

As to the first point-Indeed, Britain was short on imagination after 1778 and Continental control of everything bar Upstate New York, New York City and Georgia was solidified, and the Latin powers forced Britain to spread herself thin on the defensive, after that its' pretty much hold out and win for the US. However, any contested territory in 1775-7 was still "Up in the air" as it were, as the frequent defections, desertions and switching sides which occurred-demonstrating that had the more fluid and imaginative warfare of 1776-77 been maintained into 1778 and 79, the eventual stalemate may have seen Britain holding more than just New York and its' environs-justifying the importance placed on Fort Constitution and West Point.
The Continental Army didn't storm New York City, and had the dawning of the stalemate seen all between the Delaware and Hudson Valley fortified like New York was-I doubt that could have been successfully stormed-drastically changing the situation

True, Thomas Paine's work changed the landscape drastically-and these offers were trying to paste over the Entire war, yet Diplomacy tends to be reached when military means are exhausted-the USA didn't gain Canada or Arcadia because they were solidly in British hands once both sides had been exhausted-had the same been the case with Georgia or New York State (Both with substantial natural barriers and local Loyalist following)

Granted, if it was militarily possible to hold a "Southern Canada" out of Georgia, the Floridas, the Five Civilized tribes and as much of South Carolina as one can garrison-it would likely become independent (If it even survived to the 1900's), and follow its' own course-yet having more Canadas in one's sphere of influence while having a smaller (And possibly split in two) USA may have achieved two things-Bigger set up for round 2 during the Revolutionary Wars in Europe, 1812 or later, and kept British attention on North America rather than adventures in India

Ah-and yet the Current cannot be mistaken for a Whig interpretation of History, for it is the Victory, and indeed the Success of the USA following the Revolutionary war that proved a knock-on effect to just about every independence movement based on Nationalism since. The dominant or victorious power sets the Current of history, Republics, Communes and Free Cities had existed long before-yet success more often than not wore a crown, the Communes of Northern Italy became the Duchy of Milan, the Dutch Republic became a Kingdom. American success inspired emulation, every attempt of France or Britain to build an Empire or hold on to colonies had to contend with America sitting there doing its' own thing being all successful

I got the idea while reading about the intense debate between the Virginian and New England factions as to the future of the USA, and how their compromise shaped the USA we know today-I wondered what would happen if the two went their separate ways, creating their own brave new worlds without half-measures. The "Southern Canada" idea I got while researching Andrew Jackson's policies on the Cherokee, and thinking of how the deep south and Virginia would be impacted by this British South, Abolitionist, Loyalist and with five substantial tribes there-It would have made for an interesting war. But I suppose for that, I would have had to have written a set-up and then posed a more limited question-what would you think?


Regarding George Washington's Fabian tactics,

in baseball terms, can we say he pitched a good game and avoided giving a meatball right down the middle?

Hah, in Football terms-his holding midfield did a damned good job and made Britain pay on the counter, But yeah-pretty much
 
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