But how do they ensure no border?

The same issues that crop up in the current negotiations will crop up here; that is, the UK cannot leave both the customs union and single market and at the same time you don't have a customs and regulatory border somewhere between the EU and UK (there are only three options: 1. between the ROI and rest of the EU, 2. between ROI and NI and 3. between NI and Great Britain). The EU is not going to agree to a customs and regulatory border between the ROI and the rest of the EU (because what's the point of the Republic of Ireland being a member in that case? Plus it would require extensive treaty change which takes a very long time to do in the EU, so that's really not happening during the 2 year negotiating period under Article 50). This scenario has ruled out a border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. So that only really leaves a customs and (strengthening the already existing) regulatory border between NI and Great Britain. Given it's Labour though and they don't need any unionist parties from NI to help them govern (unless I'm misremembering the events of the TL), I can see them being far more easily agreeing to the backstop provisions of OTL (which wouldn't be called "the backstop" since that term only came up because the provisions were intended as the third and final fail-safe option to ensuring that there was no border checks or infrastructure between NI and ROI) and it being less of an issue overall. The Tories will likely raise a stink about it, as would the DUP (though I'm not sure the UUP would), but then Labour and the voters would likely expect the Tories raise a stink about it anyway (plus with the Tories divided on how Brexit should occur with some liking Labour's model and others pushing for a closer model, it could well be that the only major and noticeable objection to the customs and regulatory union between NI and ROI from Tory politicians would be that they objected to this only applying to NI rather than the UK as a whole).

EDIT: And since Hague triggered the Article 50 notification on October 7, 2007 (would that really happen on a Sunday though, or might it not happen on the Monday or Tuesday?), then the UK is due to leave on October 7, 2009 and we are already definitely past July 2009 in the TL, so there must be a pretty solid agreement by now between Burnham and the EU unless we are going to see echoes of OTL in the threat of a No Deal exit looming as the British side can't agree with itself.

Butterflies mean triggering article 50 is now a 3 year progress so the U.K. is set to leave in October 2010.

I’ll admit you’re clearly better informed on the Irish border issue than I am. Apologies for my lack of knowledge in this area. I assumed that some form of deal where there isn’t any trade area but there doesn’t need to be a border could be worked out in the interest of both the U.K. and the EU in maintaining the peace in Ireland. Northern Ireland voted for Brexit in this timeline otl so there was less of a need for a customs union but I suppose to make it applicable to real circumstances. Is there no way for a borderless Ireland without a customs union.
 
Butterflies mean triggering article 50 is now a 3 year progress so the U.K. is set to leave in October 2010.

Oh, well you may have a major problem there I'm sorry to say. The history of the withdrawal article (now Article 50) in the EU integration process goes back to 2004 with the failed Constitutional Treaty of OTL (and it seems from this TL too). In that treaty it was Article I-60 which also had a two year negotiating period for withdrawal. Article I-60 then evolved into Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon almost unchanged.

Butterflies can definitely explain Article 50 being a three year procedure, but the problem there is that there seems to be very little to suggest that anyone ever suggested a period other than 2 years.

I suspect a better option would be that rather than for the Article 50 procedure being now 3 years (it would likely remain at 2 years), that the new Burnham government made one it's first priorities an extension of the time to 3 years because:

(a) there was a change in government with a change in priorities concerning the negotiations and outcomes

(b) Burnham would want the best deal achievable for the UK and given that he wants more distance from the EU (and possibly unlike the current lot, might well recognize that the complexities of the process might require more time to negotiate) will want more time to negotiate it

Now unlike OTL, this Brexit is coming not towards the end of an EU budget cycle (2020) and before the next European Parliamentary elections (May 2019) but started at the beginning of one (the 2007-2013 budget cycle) and is set to come to an end (October 2009) after the next European Parliamentary elections (June 2009) anyway. This makes the exit a bit messier than in OTL but also means that Burnham could push for an extension anyway since an extension won't create the issue of the UK participating in the June 2009 European Parliamentary elections as an exiting member state (that issue would exist already) and can argue that more time would help to satisfactorily resolve all outstanding issues. So likely the remaining member states agree to a new apportionment for the European Parliament between 2007 and 2009 to take effect after the UK exits and a delay to 2010 won't materially affect this - the 2009 elections happen as they should (but likely without the Lisbon treaty taking effect in time so it remains at 736 MEPs rather than 751), with UK MEP seats vanishing in October 2010 and any former UK seats apportioned among the other member states being filled by MEPs elected in by-elections in those member states held maybe 3 months prior to October 2010 so that as soon as the UK seats vanished they would take up their seats.

Burnham asks for an extension and it is granted without any rancour.


OR for added drama you could have the initial period ending October 2009 but Burnham asking for an extension after the fallout from the expenses scandal and the Lords referendum.

I’ll admit you’re clearly better informed on the Irish border issue than I am. Apologies for my lack of knowledge in this area. I assumed that some form of deal where there isn’t any trade area but there doesn’t need to be a border could be worked out in the interest of both the U.K. and the EU in maintaining the peace in Ireland. Northern Ireland voted for Brexit in this timeline otl so there was less of a need for a customs union but I suppose to make it applicable to real circumstances. Is there no way for a borderless Ireland without a customs union.


Nope. Because borders are needed for two reasons (in this case, there are many other reasons for borders of course):

1. to ensure that customs duties are paid. A customs union removes the need for this because two territories in a customs union have the same customs duties with respect to other countries outside the customs union and they have no customs duties between them on any goods (whether those goods were produced in either of their territories or from outside the customs union). Once this isn't the case, then the possibility exists for trade diversion. For example, say the UK and EU didn't agree to a customs union between NI and the EU, while the rest of the UK left the customs union. And say both the UK and EU have a 10% duty on tractors. This means that legally speaking, American tractors that enter the UK via say Holyhead in Wales, should have the 10% duty charged and if they were subsequently moved to the EU via Dublin they should also be charged the EU's 10% duty. Thus if an importer really intended for the tractors to be sold to customers somewhere in the Republic of Ireland then the cheapest way is to import it directly. Plus customs authorities and governments are gaining the revenue that is due to them. If the UK and EU are not in a customs union though but they have no border in NI and no border checks somewhere then if say after Brexit the UK decides to drop the tariff on tractors to 2% while the EU maintains a 10% tariff, then a smart importer in the Republic of Ireland (with some creative accounting) would seek to get the tractors landed at Holyhead and pay the 2% tariff and then transport the tractors to NI (from Holyhead directly or via Scotland) and then into the Republic of Ireland. This is now trade diversion as goods now land in the UK (Holyhead) and pay duties (2%) to the UK authorities but end up being used in the EU (somewhere in the Republic of Ireland) having never paid the relevant duties (which go towards the Irish government and EU budgets) and depriving ports in the EU (like Dublin) of trade activity.

2. to ensure standards are maintained. Similar to 1 above, the EU and UK might have different standards on goods if they are not in the regulatory union of the single market. For example the EU might decide that paint may only contain 2% of a particular chemical which has been linked to cancer, while the UK might decide that based on other research (or the interpretation of results of the same research) that 5% of that chemical is acceptable. As a result, paint containing 5% of chemical X that comes from say Brazil would be allowed into the UK, but would not be permitted into the EU. However with no border between the EU and UK in NI (a sort of gap in the border if you will) then this kind of "Brazilian 5% of X paint" can end up in the EU since no border in Ireland means you can freely import the paint at say Dover, take it to NI and freely move it into the Republic of Ireland from whence it can go to other member states because there would be no checks between the ROI and any other member state.

Again though, the specific circumstances that meant a customs union between the ROI and NI have become unacceptable to the UK government in OTL (the UK run by the Conservative and Unionist Party and depending on the Democratic Unionist Party to govern and Theresa May specifically being Prime Minister) don't exist in this TL and so it could well be that Burnham could agree to NI remaining a part of the EU custom union and mirroring the regulations necessary to ensure the absolute free movement of goods between NI and the EU. In this TL, the DUP have 1 MP in Westminster, assuming no change for them between the 2007 and 2008 general election (though they are the largest party in Stormont and are supposed to be power-sharing with Sinn Fein since the 2007 Assembly elections) and the SDLP have 4 MPs (again assuming no change between 2007 and 2008 for them) and the SDLP had had fair relations with the Parliamentary Labour Party which in OTL they attempted to strengthen after the OTL 2005 general election (even accepting the Labour whip informally). The SDLP will likely be very much in favour NI remaining in a customs and regulatory union with the EU. With a majority of 72, Burnham can actually afford to ignore any and all Northern Irish parties, though for internal stability in NI, he is likely to take into account the views of all the Northern Irish parties when crafting the deal with the EU.
 
Oh, well you may have a major problem there I'm sorry to say. The history of the withdrawal article (now Article 50) in the EU integration process goes back to 2004 with the failed Constitutional Treaty of OTL (and it seems from this TL too). In that treaty it was Article I-60 which also had a two year negotiating period for withdrawal. Article I-60 then evolved into Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon almost unchanged.

Butterflies can definitely explain Article 50 being a three year procedure, but the problem there is that there seems to be very little to suggest that anyone ever suggested a period other than 2 years.

I suspect a better option would be that rather than for the Article 50 procedure being now 3 years (it would likely remain at 2 years), that the new Burnham government made one it's first priorities an extension of the time to 3 years because:

(a) there was a change in government with a change in priorities concerning the negotiations and outcomes

(b) Burnham would want the best deal achievable for the UK and given that he wants more distance from the EU (and possibly unlike the current lot, might well recognize that the complexities of the process might require more time to negotiate) will want more time to negotiate it

Now unlike OTL, this Brexit is coming not towards the end of an EU budget cycle (2020) and before the next European Parliamentary elections (May 2019) but started at the beginning of one (the 2007-2013 budget cycle) and is set to come to an end (October 2009) after the next European Parliamentary elections (June 2009) anyway. This makes the exit a bit messier than in OTL but also means that Burnham could push for an extension anyway since an extension won't create the issue of the UK participating in the June 2009 European Parliamentary elections as an exiting member state (that issue would exist already) and can argue that more time would help to satisfactorily resolve all outstanding issues. So likely the remaining member states agree to a new apportionment for the European Parliament between 2007 and 2009 to take effect after the UK exits and a delay to 2010 won't materially affect this - the 2009 elections happen as they should (but likely without the Lisbon treaty taking effect in time so it remains at 736 MEPs rather than 751), with UK MEP seats vanishing in October 2010 and any former UK seats apportioned among the other member states being filled by MEPs elected in by-elections in those member states held maybe 3 months prior to October 2010 so that as soon as the UK seats vanished they would take up their seats.

Burnham asks for an extension and it is granted without any rancour.


OR for added drama you could have the initial period ending October 2009 but Burnham asking for an extension after the fallout from the expenses scandal and the Lords referendum.




Nope. Because borders are needed for two reasons (in this case, there are many other reasons for borders of course):

1. to ensure that customs duties are paid. A customs union removes the need for this because two territories in a customs union have the same customs duties with respect to other countries outside the customs union and they have no customs duties between them on any goods (whether those goods were produced in either of their territories or from outside the customs union). Once this isn't the case, then the possibility exists for trade diversion. For example, say the UK and EU didn't agree to a customs union between NI and the EU, while the rest of the UK left the customs union. And say both the UK and EU have a 10% duty on tractors. This means that legally speaking, American tractors that enter the UK via say Holyhead in Wales, should have the 10% duty charged and if they were subsequently moved to the EU via Dublin they should also be charged the EU's 10% duty. Thus if an importer really intended for the tractors to be sold to customers somewhere in the Republic of Ireland then the cheapest way is to import it directly. Plus customs authorities and governments are gaining the revenue that is due to them. If the UK and EU are not in a customs union though but they have no border in NI and no border checks somewhere then if say after Brexit the UK decides to drop the tariff on tractors to 2% while the EU maintains a 10% tariff, then a smart importer in the Republic of Ireland (with some creative accounting) would seek to get the tractors landed at Holyhead and pay the 2% tariff and then transport the tractors to NI (from Holyhead directly or via Scotland) and then into the Republic of Ireland. This is now trade diversion as goods now land in the UK (Holyhead) and pay duties (2%) to the UK authorities but end up being used in the EU (somewhere in the Republic of Ireland) having never paid the relevant duties (which go towards the Irish government and EU budgets) and depriving ports in the EU (like Dublin) of trade activity.

2. to ensure standards are maintained. Similar to 1 above, the EU and UK might have different standards on goods if they are not in the regulatory union of the single market. For example the EU might decide that paint may only contain 2% of a particular chemical which has been linked to cancer, while the UK might decide that based on other research (or the interpretation of results of the same research) that 5% of that chemical is acceptable. As a result, paint containing 5% of chemical X that comes from say Brazil would be allowed into the UK, but would not be permitted into the EU. However with no border between the EU and UK in NI (a sort of gap in the border if you will) then this kind of "Brazilian 5% of X paint" can end up in the EU since no border in Ireland means you can freely import the paint at say Dover, take it to NI and freely move it into the Republic of Ireland from whence it can go to other member states because there would be no checks between the ROI and any other member state.

Again though, the specific circumstances that meant a customs union between the ROI and NI have become unacceptable to the UK government in OTL (the UK run by the Conservative and Unionist Party and depending on the Democratic Unionist Party to govern and Theresa May specifically being Prime Minister) don't exist in this TL and so it could well be that Burnham could agree to NI remaining a part of the EU custom union and mirroring the regulations necessary to ensure the absolute free movement of goods between NI and the EU. In this TL, the DUP have 1 MP in Westminster, assuming no change for them between the 2007 and 2008 general election (though they are the largest party in Stormont and are supposed to be power-sharing with Sinn Fein since the 2007 Assembly elections) and the SDLP have 4 MPs (again assuming no change between 2007 and 2008 for them) and the SDLP had had fair relations with the Parliamentary Labour Party which in OTL they attempted to strengthen after the OTL 2005 general election (even accepting the Labour whip informally). The SDLP will likely be very much in favour NI remaining in a customs and regulatory union with the EU. With a majority of 72, Burnham can actually afford to ignore any and all Northern Irish parties, though for internal stability in NI, he is likely to take into account the views of all the Northern Irish parties when crafting the deal with the EU.
Ah this makes more sense now. Thanks for explaining. I think I’ll go with the customs union applying to NI to ensure safe trade that regulations and restrictions apply to.
The 2008 and 2007 election result in NI was almost the same (the dup gained a seat from the UUP) so it’s still dominated by the SDLP and UUP. I’ll discuss this further in an update but I guess Burnham can say in the nicest way possible “it’s either this or the Troubles Mark two”.

I guess with article 50 being a three year process we can say some clairvoyant of an Eu politician thought “maybe negotiating an exit might take more than two years”
 
Of course given the number of referenda held in TTL, what's another?

An easy way out might be for Burnham to simply break the deadlock by arranging for a referendum in NI of the preferred form of border arrangements - whether for NI alone to remain in customs union with the EU or not.

If NI voted against it, then the EU is very unlikely to insist on NI remaining in the customs union and single market in order to maintain a border-less Ireland because the people of Northern Ireland themselves would have voted to re-institute a border as part of the arrangements for the UK leaving the EU. If they vote in favour of maintaining a customs union with the EU, then Burnham can freely accept any such proposals from the EU.

In fact, given that Burnham and company are not Theresa May and her merry band, this sounds like something they would actually do.
 
Of course given the number of referenda held in TTL, what's another?

An easy way out might be for Burnham to simply break the deadlock by arranging for a referendum in NI of the preferred form of border arrangements - whether for NI alone to remain in customs union with the EU or not.

If NI voted against it, then the EU is very unlikely to insist on NI remaining in the customs union and single market in order to maintain a border-less Ireland because the people of Northern Ireland themselves would have voted to re-institute a border as part of the arrangements for the UK leaving the EU. If they vote in favour of maintaining a customs union with the EU, then Burnham can freely accept any such proposals from the EU.

In fact, given that Burnham and company are not Theresa May and her merry band, this sounds like something they would actually do.
That’s actually a very smart and logical idea. Gives NI a chance to have a say on their relationship and the remainers wouldn’t feel as shafted given they get to affect what kind of relationship Ulster has with the Eu.
 
Ah this makes more sense now. Thanks for explaining. I think I’ll go with the customs union applying to NI to ensure safe trade. The 2008 and 2007 election result in NI was almost the same (the dup gained a seat from the UUP) so it’s still dominated by the SDLP and UUP. I’ll discuss this further in an update but I guess Burnham can say in the nicest way possible “it’s either this or the Troubles Mark two”.

I guess with article 50 being a three year process we can say some clairvoyant of an Eu politician thought “maybe negotiating an edit might take more than two years”

Hmm...perhaps. But then if they think it might take more than two years they might settle on a mirror to the accession process (no specific time limit but often takes 6-10 years (3 years being the shortest I think with Finland but Finland was already in the EEA so that's an outlier)). By some accounts, the Withdrawal procedure was drafted in such a way to discourage members from leaving and to put the remaining members in a position of negotiating strength vis a vis the leaving member state. This is apparently why a short time of 2 years was arbitrarily chosen (we would have to dig deeper into the history of the withdrawal clause to be sure though). But it's your TL and your POD was pretty far back, so anything like that is quite possible. It could just be that the arbitrary time period chosen is 3 years instead rather than some politician giving thought to 3 years instead of 2 years.
 
Is there a chance of NI becoming part of the EU in its own right? Not unification though!

Or would breaking the Union be a step too far even for Burnham?
 
That’s actually a very smart and logical idea. Gives NI a chance to have a say on their relationship and the remainers wouldn’t feel as shafted given they get to affect what kind of relationship Ulster has with the Eu.

And you've already had what? 10 referenda in this TL already? :openedeyewink: It would just fit.

Plus if freaking Cornwall can get a referendum, why shouldn't NI?
 
Is there a chance of NI becoming part of the EU in its own right? Not unification though!

Or would breaking the Union be a step too far even for Burnham?


Not legally possible. Only independent countries can become EU members as only independent countries can apply in their own right.
 
If NI stays in the Customs Union what's to say other bits of the Union like Scotland, Wales or Cornwall won't ballot for it?

Is Brexit that much more popular here?
 
And you've already had what? 10 referenda in this TL already? :openedeyewink: It would just fit.

Plus if freaking Cornwall can get a referendum, why shouldn't NI?
There’s been four but I see your point :) I didn’t go into this to make a “UK becomes Switzerland” TL but it seems to be turning out that way
 
If NI stays in the Customs Union what's to say other bits of the Union like Scotland, Wales or Cornwall won't ballot for it?

Is Brexit that much more popular here?

England: 65% Leave 35% Remain

Wales: 63% Leave 37% Remain

Scotland: 51% Leave 49% Remain

Northern Ireland: 57% Leave 43% Remain

Basically all regions voted to leave to varying amounts. Scotland could make an argument for the customs union agreement but there’s not the border issue and they did vote Leave so it’s less dividing than OTL.

I’d say while otl Brexit is seen by some certain nationalists as Scotland vs England and Wales in this case it’s more Scotland vs Scotland as they are less unified on either side.
 
If NI stays in the Customs Union what's to say other bits of the Union like Scotland, Wales or Cornwall won't ballot for it?

Is Brexit that much more popular here?

They can't ballot for it if Burnham doesn't give them the option and in any case the EU wouldn't be pushing for it because it isn't necessary for the EU to avoid setting up border controls along a difficult to police border in the island of Ireland.

Having scotland, wales and/or Cornwall ballot for the same thing actually makes it more difficult for the EU because then the EU would have to look at how in conjunction with the UK they would set up customs controls in Great Britain.

The EU wouldn't ask for it (as they likely would for NI), and Burnham wouldn't offer, besides which internally in Scotland it will be a divided issue but without the backdrop of the history of NI which makes NI's case a bit different.
 
Even with NI voting to leave in TTL, the UK government still needs to abide by the Good Friday agreement and every way anyone can think of to withdraw and keep to the Good Friday agreement aren't acceptable to Unionists.

Of course, this may not be an issue in Westminster, since it's rather unlikely Burnham will need any MPs from NI or the Unionist wing of the Conservative party to support whatever deal he comes to. It very much will be an issue in NI tho.

fasquardon
 
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