Alternative to the ME-262

[Matt jones]

Instead of wasting time on jets could Germany think of anything more reliable and efficent for the Luftwaffe?

Could they possibly just upgrade existing planes or develop a new piston engine plane?

What would you choose to have over the ME-262?

 

[cortz#9]

This might have been a good alternative.

 

[marathag]

Actually, a Luftwaffe version of this, the Ryan Fireball XFR-4

over 450 mph with a 1425hp radial and a 3400lb thrust turbojet.

Gives you long range and loiter time, but also high speed, and the reliability of the radial for takeoffs and landings.

 

[Riain]

More of the same isn't going to save the nazis, they had to go to a radical solution to the problem to break out of the vortex of being totally overwhelmed in the air.

 

[Just Leo]

Instead of wasting time on jets could Germany think of anything more reliable and efficent for the Luftwaffe?

Could they possibly just upgrade existing planes or develop a new piston engine plane?

The FW-190D-9 and subsequent Ta-152 models offered adequate performance, but the timing of their introduction and production quantities available, along with trained pilots was late, too late to stem the tide of ever growing Allied air power. Well-trained Luftwaffe pilots were becoming rare, and hardware wouldn't change that.

 

[NoMommsen]

Alternative to the Me-262 jet ? MOAR JETS and earlier ! Like the He-280

First flown in summer/late summer 1940. In a contest flight 'n fight against a Fw-190 ... completly outflew the latter.
First aircraft planned and fitted and tested in-flight with an ejection seat (though that "test" wasn't planned ).

Rejected by the "highly competent" Udet as well as Milch due to personal and intimate animosities against Heinkel.
(Fighter construction was reserved to Messerschmit. Heinkel should concentrate on bombers. ... and don't "pester" the Über-Nazis with his ongoing requests for high-performance fighter-crafts.)
Later delayed again and again due to ever changing engine requirements with consecutive engine reliability problems.

Could have been operational at the front in some numbers summer/autumn 1942. At that time probably outflying anything the Allies could bring into the air.

Yes, its performance was below the Me 262, but with ongoing development, while "hard-tested" at the front, I'm confident, that it would have matched it in 1944, when me 262 became operational.

 

[NoMommsen]

For something even a wee bit earlier possible : the He-178

First flown with its engine in August 1939. Presented to the Luftwaffe (Göring and Udet ) on 1.November 1939
It would have needed some more "enthusiasm" and foresight (not hindsight) of these guys to see its potential as a short range interceptor.

Due to the complete desinterest shown by the "big guys" Heinkel abandoned it and went on to develop the above mentioned He-280.

In general the advantage of jet-engines, beside their potential of making aircrafts faaaaster, was in a relativly lesser complexity, for the early engines, compared to high-performance combustion-engines, as well as ... in their use of easier and cheaper to produce kerosine than high-octane aircraft-fuel.

 

[Riain]

What engines are these aircraft going to use?

 

[NoMommsen]

At first probably productionversions of the HeS 8. Maybe the planned "upgrade" of the HeS 9 with an additional compressor stage.
If Heinkel would have been approved probably relativly shortly followed by the HeS 30.

From than onwards ... whatever the now approved jet-engine R&D in germany might produce.

 

[tomo pauk]

Instead of wasting time on jets could Germany think of anything more reliable and efficent for the Luftwaffe?
Could they possibly just upgrade existing planes or develop a new piston engine plane?
What would you choose to have over the ME-262?

Luftwaffe got as much mileage from Bf 109 as possible, while they wasted too much of time to outfit the Fw 190 with a big V12 engine (Jumo 213 or/and DB 603). However, the early Fw 190C/D gives barely parity vs. P-47 and Tempest, while it is still not as good as P-51B/C/D or Spitfire XIV above 7 km. And Luftwaffe can't afford to go 1:1 vs the enemy that has multiple advantage in numbers.
So if historical piston engines are choosen, two are needed to propel the mid/late-war LW fighter well above 700 km/h. So we're looking at the 'baby Do-335' that is designed around two DB 605 engines, or the German variation to the Ki-64 theme, albeit with 'normal' radiators.
If we want to speed up German engine development, the 2-stage variants of DB-605/603 and Jumo 213 improve the performance above 7 km nicely, so the such-engined Bf 109 and Fw 190 will go to 720-750 km/h.

In order to go well, well above 750 km/h, the jets are the only option.

 

[Archibald]

I vote for the He-280. It could have been in service a year earlier than the Me 262, in time for the Schweinfurt raids.
The He-178 was an experimental aircraft without any armor, armement, and other goodies.

The Do-335 certainly had good performances but wasn't a dogfighter. P-51D would have eaten it for lunch.

 

[Archibald]

Actually, a Luftwaffe version of this, the Ryan Fireball XFR-4

over 450 mph with a 1425hp radial and a 3400lb thrust turbojet.

Gives you long range and loiter time, but also high speed, and the reliability of the radial for takeoffs and landings.

I remember a story about a Fireball pilot that outran a flight of Hellcats - with both jet and piston engine working - and then he feathered his propeller and flew along the same Hellcats, just to disgust their pilots.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This might have been a good alternative.

That WAS the best alternative! With engines based on the DB601 the Germans have been making since the 1930s, with unbeatable speed, long endurance and heavy armament along with large ammunition stowage, the Dornier Do 335 Pfeil (Arrow) should have replaced all efforts spent on jets and rockets and the Me163 and Me262.

Messerschmitt never offered the right aircraft at the right time in sufficient numbers. I don't know why Messerschmitt kept getting the contracts. Politics and connections obviously.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Do-335 certainly had good performances but wasn't a dogfighter. P-51D would have eaten it for lunch.

Skip the rockets and jets and the Do-335 could have been in service before the bombers had effective escorts.

 

[Archibald]

I think a combination of He-280 and Do-335 could have been lethal, first both as bomber destroyers, then, the He-280 fight against P-47/ P-38 / P-51 escorts. Trouble is that Do-335 didn't flew until October 1943...

 

[pattersonautobody]

This is a tough subject. The TA 152 and Do 335 cannot be ready early enough, nor can the Germans produce the high octane fuel to power a bunch of them.

This means a jet is necessary. An one engine jet is suicidal, because of the high incidence of engine failure.

Germany's best move is to go to production with the HE280 earlier, so they have time to work out some bugs before they completely lose air superiority in early 44. Pretty much push it into production ASAP and let the chips fall where they may. A combined flight arm can be deadly, because the FW190s can protect the HE280s during take off and landing.

It would have led the world for the duration of the war and its engines (the Hes8) were less material intensive. Plus, it had an ejection seat and tricycle landing gear, so the only thing holding it back is jet engine technology. Force it out and work out the bugs.

 

[mack8]

Even with a higher accident rate, i think single engine jet pilots still have much higher chances to survive against the opposition.

In light of this, my idea: He-280 is the fist jet fighter to fly so they concentrate on improving and building it AND the HeS30 engine, the Me-262 is cancelled and instead Messerschmitt gets a contract for a single engine jet fighter, the P.1092, small, cheap and able to be built in large numbers. So they get to build build a good number of He-280 and many thousands of P.1092 fighters into 1945. Cancel the Ar-234 apart from perhaps a few recce versions to release engines. Cancel the Me-163 to free resources. Then the next step would be a swept wing M0.9 fighter ordered in mid-1944, could be the He P.1078 or BV P.211 or Me P.1101 or Ta-183.

But like pointed earlier, they really have to have the He-280 working somewhat at least in 1943 and hordes of P.1092 in 1944 in time to oppose the renewed day bomber offensive. But if Hitler still intervene, it's all for nothing.

Oh and yeah, get the Fw-190C in 1943 to protect the jets on take-off and landing.

PS: Alternatively, how about a jet engined Me-163?! The Lippisch P.20 was just such a design from spring 1943. If the airframe maintains almost all the good qualities of the OTL 163, it will be something. Small, cheap and very fast, hordes of these could overwhelm the P-51s and P-47s surely.

 

[eltf177]

If there was any way to get the jet engines more reliable prewar that would really help - trying to perfect them under wartime conditions and lack of materials just makes things ten times harder...

 

[marathag]

This is a tough subject. The TA 152 and Do 335 cannot be ready early enough, nor can the Germans produce the high octane fuel to power a bunch of them.

This means a jet is necessary. An one engine jet is suicidal, because of the high incidence of engine failure.

That's why I think a Fireball clone would be best.
Even with the more reliable US turbojets, they still flamed out and failed. Not what the Navy thought was safe for Jets operating from carriers.

As posted above, Fireball operators often feathered the prop and flew just on jet power, and at higher altitudes, got most of the power from the jet in any case.

Had the Army Ace Richard Bong been flying a Fireball, he wouldn't have died like he did in a P-80 from engine trouble.

For Extra Goodness, a German Fireball would run a diesel for the propeller, so they could share the same low cost fuel supply. The US Fireball had its turbine set to use avgas, so missed out on the advantages of using JP-1 or Jet A, and had worse range and power running on avgas, but USN didn't need to have separate tankage

 

[NoMommsen]

PS: Alternatively, how about a jet engined Me-163?! The Lippisch P.20 was just such a design from spring 1943. If the airframe maintains almost all the good qualities of the OTL 163, it will be something. Small, cheap and very fast, hordes of these could overwhelm the P-51s and P-47s surely.

Actually, Lippisch and his team made dozens of such proposals, much of them already detailed and well computed : single-engined, double-engined, combined jet + rocketry

... but, you know, the Fat Man and his cronies at the helm of the Luftwaffe ...