Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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Ah yes, LiB has posted this pic before. This was an attempt (trial) to give the Sheridan a more versatile/useful direct-fire gun - though not as high pressure as the L7 and definitely not a howitzer. I guess the trial was not deemed a success as it didn’t enter series production. 👍

I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?
 
I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?
It's a dance shared by multiple nations... and usually never ends well, cause the client wants "almost"-MBT levels of protection and firepower, while still fiting in a plane.
 
I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?

That sounds absolutely on the nail! 👍
 
I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?
Plus, the uses of Airmobile tanks are, by definition niche. So you're trading some amount of MBTs for some vehicles that are, in most situations worse, except in a few cases.
 
Ah yes, LiB has posted this pic before. This was an attempt (trial) to give the Sheridan a more versatile/useful direct-fire gun - though not as high pressure as the L7 and definitely not a howitzer. I guess the trial was not deemed a success as it didn’t enter series production. 👍
What if the 152 mm XM150E5 the gun intended for the MBT-70 had been tried on the Sheridan?
M551 w 152 mm XM150E5.png

Would it have fit, could the turret have handled the recoil?
 
I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?
Absolutely the former for the M551, since it was simply too light to handle its chosen armament adequately with the technology of the day.

Latter for the M8 AGS, since this was Peace Dividended away, yet not revived when the MGS program was started, which was IMO a big mistake as Stryker MGS got a ton of issues like lower ammo capacity, poorer protection (especially mine protection), lower reliability of the autoloader, more constraints with the gun arc...

T92 Light Tank got screwed by the Amphibious Gap started by the Soviet PT-76. The 80's lights were mostly all tech demonstrators and had little chance to get produced when the Army was busy rearming the main forces already.
What would have been the optimal "conventional" tank gun for the Sheridan? AT gun or support gun
The low pressure 105 that could shoot M68 ammo at lower muzzle velocity. You get canister, good HEAT, good payload with less issues than the 152mm. The FCS developped for M551A1 and likely in the works from the beginning would address some of the long-range accuracy problems.
 
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I'll own limited knowledge here..... How much of the perpetual dalliance the US military has had with developing an air-transportable tank - with limited results is due to:
  • Actual performance - given the acknowledged limitation of the weight restrictions
Versus
  • Limited budgets and the desire of the top brass not risking a reduction in the number of MBT's?
Usually the former. The Soviets/Russians have, until the latest T-14/Kurganets-25 generation, developed a series of consistently air-droppable IFVs and tanks on lower budgets. They just accepted that such vehicles would have minimal armor.
 
What if the 152 mm XM150E5 the gun intended for the MBT-70 had been tried on the Sheridan?
View attachment 686844
Would it have fit, could the turret have handled the recoil?

You would basically require a full-blown MBT to handle the 152mm XM150, and to my knowledge the only other tank it was even considered for was as a potential upgrade to the M60A2.

What would have been the optimal "conventional" tank gun for the Sheridan? AT gun or support gun

Honestly, while a lower velocity 105mm M68 or similar gun would work, a support gun would probably be best. It really wasn't suited to take on other tanks, and something like say the L9/M135 165mm demolition gun would probably work wonders given its lower muzzle velocity, thus it should have less recoil.
 
Thanks for @cortz#9 for entertaining my request:):)
Type_80_MBT.png


Type 80 MBT
The JLDF began studies on new tank designs with Mitsubishi in 1970 after Type 68 had been shown to be outmatched by new Soviet tanks such as the T-63 during the Battle of Hanoi. Features from several designs were incorporated, including the controllable suspension of the canceled US-United German T-70 project, the hull of the Leopard 1, and a similar 120mm gun. The design included an armored cupola for the commander and a new autoloader for the main gun. Prior to the decision to design an entirely new tank, some technologies which would later be used in the STC-1 (first prototype) were already in development independently in Japan. The design was finalized in 1972 and various test rigs were built between 1974 and 1976. It was used during the 2nd Sino-Vietnamese War in 1984 and it performed very well in the war. 550 Type 80 MBT were produced for JLDF and exported to Asian countries such as the Kingdom of Vietnam, Kingdom of Kampuchea, Republic of the Philippines, and Federation of Malaya. It was followed by Type 92 MBT.


I used the background details of Type 74 in Wikipedia, so the background story is quite unrealistic.
 
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A small part of the story in my Manticore TL involves technical defense cooperation between manticore and the United States in the late 1930s. This had the effect of enabling Manticoran production of artillery pieces like the 90mm anti-aircraft gun and the 155mm howitzer beginning in 1937, so more pieces are available when the war starts. Because I need to figure out what kind of Lend-lease armor Manticore will be able to receive, I essentially need to redesign US armored vehicle production throughout the war. In a very generalized summary, The M3 was produced in 1942, the M4 with 75 mm gun and M10 tank destroyer were produced in 1943, and the M4 with 76mm gun or 105mm howitzer was produced in 1944. I know there was a lot of overlap, because I have a document detailing monthly production numbers of every piece of military equipment that the United States used, but the important part for me right now is what would be available for Lend-Lease.

I've detailed Manticoran tank production before, but here's a quick recap.
1936-37: Basically the Strv m/42
1938-40: Medium 25-ton tank, with 3-inch L/40 field gun (comparable to Sherman 75 or T-34/76) and torsion bar suspension
1941-42: Medium 30-ton tank, with 76 mm Gun M1
1943-45: Medium 40-ton tank, with 90 mm Gun M3

Manticoran tanks use two-stroke diesel engines, so that won't be much help for the US if they want to stay with gasoline fuel. However Manticore is also sponsoring development of the Ford GG aero engine, which could make large numbers of the Ford GAA tank engine available for production in 1942. With a big V8 in service by the time M4 production begins, it might be possible to avoid some of the problems that resulted in the Sherman due to the use of radial engines.

Let's start with the M2 Medium. Manticoran tank design philosophy has always focused heavily on the use of a 3-inch field gun in a rotating turret. Hopefully, these kinds of discussions would be enough to break the cult of the machine gun and result in a more reasonable design for the M2. The result would be a tank with a larger turret, holding a three-man turret crew, and either a 37 mm anti-tank gun or a 75 mm light howitzer. The 3-inch Gun M1902 could also be a reasonable fit, but that is basically no longer a supported product at this point. The selected engine will be the Wright R-975, so the hall form will be basically the same as OTL. The transmission choices made for the T20 series were, generally speaking, selected to allow the use of a rear-mounted transmission without needing gear shift levers to run from the drivers compartment to the rear of the vehicle. Inaccuracies in manufacturing were probably the reason why the transmission on the T-34 was so difficult to shift, so the US wanted to avoid that. Therefore, the arrangement with a rear engine and a front transmission will remain the same. Because of the metallurgical complexities of torsion bars and extensive US industrial experience with volute springs as part of rail car suspensions, the VVSS system will remain.

My idea for M3 production in 1942 is to keep the same general hull form and increase the size of the turret ring to accommodate a 75 mm field gun. We entirely avoid the interim sponsor design, and the M3 tank is basically identical to the OTL M4. The VVSS system is retained, as is the rear-engine, front-drive arrangement. The issue here is hull height as a result of engine selection. If the Ford GAA is introduced, hull height can be substantially reduced, but that could be a complication considering the need to quickly design and produce a new tank in late 1941 and early 1942. On the other hand, very little of the upper hull architecture was retained between the OTL M2 and the OTL M3. The M2/M3/M4's hull between the tracks was too narrow to fit the 69-inch turret ring, so sponsons are required regardless of hull height. The alternate engine option is the GM 6046 (twin 6-71 diesels).

The bulk of 1943 tank production in the US was made up of M4 (75) Shermans and M10 TDs, both of which entered production in the second half of 1942. Engine options will definitely be the Ford GAA (gas, 450 hp) and the 12V-71 (diesel, 450 hp). The main difference in hull architecture between the OTL M4 and the T20 series was the rear-mounted transmission and lower-profile engine, so the entire T20 hull is roughly 1.5-1.7 meters tall. The hull was designed from the start to be wide enough for the 69-inch turret ring without sponsons. Considering the difficulties with the rear-mounted transmissions, staying with the front-mounted transmission may be necessary for 1943 production. Gun options will be the 76 mm Gun M1 for the gun tanks and the 90 mm Gun M3 for the tank destroyers. Suspension selection is a somewhat complicated choice. The US tested a torsion bar suspension on the M4A2E4 in summer 1943, but that wasn't much better than the VVSS or HVSS. ITTL, Manticore has extensive experience with torsion bars so that could be the selection for the 1943 tank. Stacking the prop shaft on top of hull-bottom torsion bars will add some hull height (about a foot) over the T20 series. The final hull might look like an OTL M10 hull with sloped front and sponson armor, but I have never been able to find exact dimensions on an M10 hull to actually compare it to a welded-hull Sherman.

By 1944, the need for a tank with a 90 mm gun is likely to be apparent. Manticore already has a 90 mm gun tank and the Germans have a new and much larger medium tank. My thinking is that the 1944 production tank taking the place of the OTL Sherman 76 will closely resemble the T25 tank. The Torqmatic transmission used on the M26 Pershing (from the T20 medium) is the likely choice. Armor will be roughly three inches on the frontal surfaces. Tank production numbers were significantly reduced from 1943 to 1944.

My preliminary plan for the tanks Manticore will be receiving from Lend-Lease in 1942, 1943, and 1944 is:
1942: M4A2 with 75 mm Gun M3, GM 6046 engine, VVSS suspension, and narrow tracks
1943: M4A2 with 76 mm Gun M1, 12V-71 engine, torsion bar suspension, lower hull, and wide tracks.
1944: T25E1 with 90 mm Gun M3, 12V-71 engine, Torqmatic transmission, torsion bar suspension, and wide tracks.
 
Ustinov lives a bit longer, aka "the Kharkovites have been finally brought in line"...

Nothing could save Kharkov's 6TD opposed-piston engine anymore. As planned, the plant for manufacturing VDTD-1000 gas turbines had been completed and was churning out engines by 1985. Production of the T-80U at Kharkov could commence while the T-64's manufacturing line was dismantled forever.

A more modern successor of the GTD series turbine, the VDTD-1000 delivered 1250hp out of a 1,440cc displacement with a substantially reduced fuel consumption. More importantly, it finally introduced a 80hp APU to massively reduce fuel consumption while idling. Not just the T-80U, but also new-built T-80Bs and BVs were fitted with this engine.

Following the dissolution of the USSR, the Kharkov plant now in Ukraine suddenly found itself without orders. Luckily, Pakistan was precisely looking for more modern MBTs and purchased 320 T-80Us (1). It also desired an engine source that circumvented Western sanctions of 1998 induced by the national nuclear program, to equip the Al-Khalid that was supposed to use German or British engines. The VDTD-1000 was the perfect solution to that problem. (2)

This engine would also be featured in subsequent Ukrainian designs and upgrades such as the T-64BM and the T-84. The 6TD was truly dead...

(1) Historically T-80UDs
(2) Historically the 6TD, which resulted in the Al-Khalid being somewhat underpowered and especially lacking torque and being maintenance-heavy. The turbine doesn't have any of these problems.

Author's note: The cancellation of VDTD-1000 in favor of the Kharkovite 6TD was downright treasonous, and pretty much ruined the potential of the T-80 series, forced to keep the older and gaz-guzzling GTD.
 
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Author's note: The cancellation of VDTD-1000 in favor of the Kharkovite 6TD was downright treasonous, and pretty much ruined the potential of the T-80 series, forced to keep the older and gaz-guzzling GTD.
To be fair no one but Ustinov saw much potential in the T-80 anyway, and even today it's considered to have offered no significant advantage over upgrading their existing tanks:
https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/884-t-80-megathread-astronomical-speed-and-price/
(most of that information is from Zaloga's book on the T-80)
 
Hullo. (^_^)

Just a request/question?

Might the amazing Claymore or other artists revisit Claymore's Sd.Kfz. 234/5 Mammut (Mammoth) and investigate putting a 'Top' on the beasty?

Sort of a 'Hummvee' crew cab with cargo carrying in the back?

Also... what might a 'Short' 6X6 version of the Sd.Kfz hull possibly look like?

Cheers and much best wishes to every one. (^_^)
 
Hullo. (^_^)

Just a request/question?

Might the amazing Claymore or other artists revisit Claymore's Sd.Kfz. 234/5 Mammut (Mammoth) and investigate putting a 'Top' on the beasty?

Sort of a 'Hummvee' crew cab with cargo carrying in the back?

Also... what might a 'Short' 6X6 version of the Sd.Kfz hull possibly look like?

Cheers and much best wishes to every one. (^_^)
I did a couple of wheeled versions of the Sd.Kfz. in the past and I believe Claymore has as well but here's two I did a long time ago, I think I originally posted them in the first version of this thread.
sdkfz251-6-Rad01.jpg

I have to admit it's not a great pic, I'm sure I could do much better and I have better line drawings too.
 
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