Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

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The real problems were that the T-34M wasn't yet fully developped and the Soviets were forced to postpone any further development until the initial crisis passed; and that the US couldn't easily copy or adapt its components.
The Americans had enough difficulty adapting their own engines to the Sherman and the 75mm M3 gun would most likely see integration problems in the T-34M turret. The transmission and tracks were also very different from US practice. It's dubious that the US could certify and produce all those components locally any earlier than the Sherman. The US also likely didn't have the tooling to do that and it would be unwise to change all of that when the Sherman is sufficient.

Finally, the Sherman had a decent degree of commonality in tooling and components with the Lee which was not the case of the T-34M.
Well first of all who would have to change tooling? Its not likely that those that companies that were about to start producing the M3 would accept orders.
M-H would probably be delighted to drop their godawful tanks and like I said i didnt just think of the US but also Canada that were very interested in starting domestic production.
And finally the development of the T-34M wasn´t postponed but entirely dropped after the disasters in 1941
 
Well first of all who would have to change tooling? Its not likely that those that companies that were about to start producing the M3 would accept orders.
M-H would probably be delighted to drop their godawful tanks and like I said i didnt just think of the US but also Canada that were very interested in starting domestic production.
And finally the development of the T-34M wasn´t postponed but entirely dropped after the disasters in 1941
It was restarted in 1942 but renamed into the T-43 and modified to be easier to put in production
 
Speaking of tank production, what if the Soviets did what the Czar did and ordered the T-34M from US and Canadian factories in 1941?
Canada starts offloading all their Ram tanks to the Soviet Union.

Ram was better than the Lee in many regards, so the Soviets would complain less.
 
No it wasn´t the the T-43 was basicly an uparmored T-34 with torsion bars it only shared design bureau with the T-34M
It's more complex than that:

Morozov did restart the T-34M (modernization of the T-34) in 1942. However since the factory he was at was differently tooled than Kharkov he changed a number of things to keep greater commonality with the T-34 so it had little to do with the T-34M. Namely the suspension was taken from the AT-45 tractor, the hull gunner was removed and the driver moved to the other side and the turret ring diameter was kept at 1420mm with a two-man turret.

The biggest conceptual difference is that this tank was intended more to replace the KV-1S like the KV-13 and as such had much thicker armor than the 1941 T-34M.

A three-man turret version was dubbed the T-44 (not the rear-turret 1941 version or the 1944 version that was built).

Apparently the first time the T-43 index showed up was when the Soviet Army wanted a three-man turret version of the T-34M 1942 (not the T-44). This included other changes like a better cooling system.
 
Some interesting thoughts:

I'm not sure continuing mass production of conventional light tanks after the M5 Stuart (so M24 and M41) was all that useful for America.
Although Britain and the USSR still considered such designs after 1943 (A46, FV 301, LTTB), they designed none of those were worth it and then went to design lights that could fit a specific niche (airborne, amphibious). This was the case of the rest of the world and the US with the M551 Sheridan, and only China still built conventional light tanks but only because of the particularly poor terrain in certain regions that could not support heavier vehicles.

The M24 and M41 effectively functionned as weaker and less armored medium tanks that were still neither amphibious nor truly air-transportable. If a lot of punch is required in recon formations, most countries will just use MBTs.

One can wonder if doctrinally, the US needed conventional light tanks after 1943. Given how late the M24 saw combat, its production line may have been better served churning out more Shermans or M18 Hellcats. Meanwhile automotive performance had sufficiently progressed that the US could have built a medium tank that could serve for heavy recon too in the 50s.

Considering how many countries the M24s or M41s ended in, I can only imagine how different an ATL without either of those tanks would be.
 

Driftless

Donor
Some interesting thoughts:

I'm not sure continuing mass production of conventional light tanks after the M5 Stuart (so M24 and M41) was all that useful for America.
Although Britain and the USSR still considered such designs after 1943 (A46, FV 301, LTTB), they designed none of those were worth it and then went to design lights that could fit a specific niche (airborne, amphibious). This was the case of the rest of the world and the US with the M551 Sheridan, and only China still built conventional light tanks but only because of the particularly poor terrain in certain regions that could not support heavier vehicles.

The M24 and M41 effectively functionned as weaker and less armored medium tanks that were still neither amphibious nor truly air-transportable. If a lot of punch is required in recon formations, most countries will just use MBTs.

One can wonder if doctrinally, the US needed conventional light tanks after 1943. Given how late the M24 saw combat, its production line may have been better served churning out more Shermans or M18 Hellcats. Meanwhile automotive performance had sufficiently progressed that the US could have built a medium tank that could serve for heavy recon too in the 50s.

Considering how many countries the M24s or M41s ended in, I can only imagine how different an ATL without either of those tanks would be.
I think there's another couple of components to consider too.... First, filling the airborne role requires aircraft with significant weight carrying capacity and end-loading capability, which didn't really exist very well till post-WW2 (I'll allow the Hamilcar and Me Gigants as halfway steps during the war). Second, every single time the US has ventured down the road to air-transportable tanks, mission-creep takes over and the weapon goes on a high-fat diet, and soon it no longer fits the original mission profile.
 
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Some interesting thoughts:

I'm not sure continuing mass production of conventional light tanks after the M5 Stuart (so M24 and M41) was all that useful for America.
Although Britain and the USSR still considered such designs after 1943 (A46, FV 301, LTTB), they designed none of those were worth it and then went to design lights that could fit a specific niche (airborne, amphibious). This was the case of the rest of the world and the US with the M551 Sheridan, and only China still built conventional light tanks but only because of the particularly poor terrain in certain regions that could not support heavier vehicles.

The M24 and M41 effectively functionned as weaker and less armored medium tanks that were still neither amphibious nor truly air-transportable. If a lot of punch is required in recon formations, most countries will just use MBTs.

One can wonder if doctrinally, the US needed conventional light tanks after 1943. Given how late the M24 saw combat, its production line may have been better served churning out more Shermans or M18 Hellcats. Meanwhile automotive performance had sufficiently progressed that the US could have built a medium tank that could serve for heavy recon too in the 50s.

Considering how many countries the M24s or M41s ended in, I can only imagine how different an ATL without either of those tanks would be.
No M24 & M41 probably means that those that got them gets M4s instead, ofcourse I wonder if the French would be able to disassemble Shermans and fly them into Dien Bien phu like they did with the M24
 
Some alternate Japanese AFV's modified by the Germans, inspired by this TL- https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...itch-places-after-pearl-harbor-attack.514465/
Japan-Ger mods.png

So the premise of the TL is that Italy and Japan have traded places and what might happen afterwards. I of course assume that the Germans would help the Japanese up gun their AFV's.

Here's a map* of ISOT Japan.
japan-italy-3-jpg.670104

Hope to have some more pics to post later.

* Map by Insane Ranter
 
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More difficult to manufacture than one imagined.
v60LipGEDuAuuaI-bGqpGu4MhuEil-xoBmBceiK9oz4.jpg

If you notice the sides, they're not flat but slightly sloped

That's a lotta machining to be done.

And it had 8 roadwheels and 4 idlers compared to 6 roadwheels and 3 idlers of the Panzer III

Tracks were too thin, hence the Ostketten later in the war.

The whole tank was underpowered and it started to show in the later Ausf. H, weighed down by heavy armor, a heavier gun, and other specs it was never designed for.

Panzer III/IV was a much better choice. Too bad it was only started (and cancelled) in 1944.
The Pz3 and 4 have plenty of room to improve the ease of production.
First, the amount of plates. The less plates one side\view of made of, the easier the assembly and production. The upper front is already made of 2 plates instead of one. The roof is made 2 plates . The side is a magnificient welding dream.

The second is the insane amount of ports, hatchea on thick (vertical) plates.

Comparing it to the panther, where big, single plates are used, and every possible hatch, port is on the roof, i would say they did seen the necessary improvements.
 
Some alt. Japanese AFV's.
C5u1nZr.png

The idea here is that Japan is now located in the Mediterranean and is fighting Great Britain and the Germans have helped the Japanese to re-arm some of their tanks to take on the larger and better armored AFV's of the British and some have been repurposed for the infantry support role..

Ideally I would have used Japanese guns but I couldn't find any decent line drawings of Japanese guns.
I was thinking of using Russian guns but not sure if that would be feasible vis a vis the ammunition.
 
1628429656595.png

Found this little gem by sheer luck when I noticed a French report on ATGM development mentionned an AMX-10M HOT carrier. This seems to have been the earliest solution for a ground service platform for the missile. AMX-10P hull, turret carrying four ATGM canisters and a 20mm gun.
 
View attachment 671625
Found this little gem by sheer luck when I noticed a French report on ATGM development mentionned an AMX-10M HOT carrier. This seems to have been the earliest solution for a ground service platform for the missile. AMX-10P hull, turret carrying four ATGM canisters and a 20mm gun.
looks like an adapted version of the SS11 solution on the AMX13, but with missiles moved to the sides
from wiki:
Amx13_ss11_010.jpg
 
looks like an adapted version of the SS11 solution on the AMX13, but with missiles moved to the sides
from wiki:
Amx13_ss11_010.jpg
It's the same concept of putting the missiles and guidance modules separately rather than integrating the guidance modules in a periscopic sight like Jaguar 1. The former solution was used on AMX-13 for testing:
1628431131145.png
 
It's the same concept of putting the missiles and guidance modules separately rather than integrating the guidance modules in a periscopic sight like Jaguar 1. The former solution was used on AMX-13 for testing:
View attachment 671626
Photos like that makes me wonder how effective light tanks would be against heavier vehicles if they were fitted with likes of Trophy.
Would an army need any more than a few MBTs if their light tanks were more likely to survive combat, especially as being cheaper, you could afford more lights than MBTs. So the "quantity has a quality of it's own" argument starts to have an effect.
 
AMX_10_HOT_20mm_Prototype.JPG

Turns out two AMX 10 HOT protos were actually built in 1970 and 72, but the turret was replaced by the Lancelot as it was lower in profile at the cost of the 20mm, which I'm fine with.
This was intended for the mechanized anti armor companies with VAB HOT for the motorized companies, but for some reason the French army was restructured to drop the mech AT coys and only VAB HOT or MEPHISTO was procured.

Yet, the MEPHISTO used its own unique turret and appears to have taken a long time to be developped with the first deliveries in 1984. Considering that export deliveries of the AMX-10 HOT began in 1977, this seems like a huge waste of time and duplication of turret projects. A French Army AMX 10 HOT buy could have further reinforced the success in export.

Not enough purges in the French procurement system it seems.
 
Just putting my management consulting hat back on, but I wonder if we were able to use more modern day knowledge about improving workplace structure & task allocation. Whether we would be able to get a material reduction in construction man hours? I think we would it's just finding out where it would occur.
Much of that knowledge was used in WWII tanks (at least in the US), though the result of modern techniques in workplace structure and task allocation would probably reduce man-hours in outfitting or assembly, sometimes in welding internal parts. There was a site (not working anymore, I'm trying to figure out how to find anyone who might be able to get it back) which had lots of images of post-WWII shipbuilding methods with captions showing how the improved structures reduced man-hours. Their main reductions were in outfitting after the ship was finished, so I imagine the reductions would be similar in tanks.
So I found a saved page on the Internet Archive, which states:
As a consequence of their participation in the Maritime Administration created and administered National Shipbuilding Research Program, Portsmouth Naval Shipyard representatives appreciated the benefits of a product work breakdown structure (PWBS) as compared to the Navy's traditional use of a system work breakdown structure (SWBS). They understood that the modularization afforded by the former enables the world's most effective shipyards to organize both real and virtual work flows even for ship-overhaul work. They also appreciated that a product work breakdown is a practical way to divide work into the relatively small packages that are necessary for adequate production control. Thus, in 1985 they performed a Pareto analysis of work-package sizes employed by their yard for a traditional system-by-system overhaul of a nuclear submarine (SSN-690). They discovered that for 1,941,737 estimated man-hours allocated to 5,432 work packages, 63% of the work packages exceeded 1,000 man-hours in size, 23% exceeded 10,000 man-hours, and the largest was 52,000. Production control in such situations, is inherently ineffective.
If this applies to tanks, then the material reduction in construction man-hours would not occur in any specific areas, but rather the more manpower-intensive tasks would be replaced by multiple smaller ones, and some of those smaller ones would be reduced.
 
Not related to the tanks themselves, but interesting: according to declassified dics the UK and Canada did test depleted uranium alloy APDS cores out of the 20pdr, 105 and 120mm guns, the latter in 1963.

Compared to W-Ni-Cu tungsten alloy and tungsten carbide, DU was way better against a 100mm plate at 53°, being able to penetrate it at 3870 yards instead of 2000m for tungsten alloy and 1500m for carbide, out of the 20pdr.
Out of the 105 and 120, the allegedly later trials showed that DU performed worse than tungsten alloy against homogenous steel but as well against spaced targets, although with few shots fired in trials.
unknown.png

unknown.png


DU seemingly performed worse due to less well understood manufacturing processes and lower length-to-diameter ratio (higher density for the same APDS weight for proper stabilization, so shorter).

The British also tested a W-Ni-Fe alloy, which the US used for all of their late 60s tungsten APFSDS, the Germans for all of their APFSDS (testing in 60s too), and the Soviet Union in BM-26 125mm APFSDS cores (France too).

Weirdly enough, the British kept W-Ni-Cu for their APDS and L23A1 APFSDS but tested W-Ni-Fe for it. W-Ni-Fe is vastly superior due to much greater elongation of 18-20% which means it breaks up far less. W-Ni-Cu is almost as brittle as tungsten carbide (elongation 2-3%), but softer so worse against vertical targets than carbide.
This latter declassified picture shows the effects of a thin plate on impacting cores of W-Ni-Cu and W-Ni-Fe cores.
tFGwDnmFWTA.jpg

One can only wonder how much better would further developped W-Ni-Fe or DU APDS and L23A1 be...
Maybe L15 120mm APDS with these alloys would really threaten T-64 in the 1970s...
 
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Some alt. Japanese AFV's.
C5u1nZr.png

The idea here is that Japan is now located in the Mediterranean and is fighting Great Britain and the Germans have helped the Japanese to re-arm some of their tanks to take on the larger and better armored AFV's of the British and some have been repurposed for the infantry support role..

Ideally I would have used Japanese guns but I couldn't find any decent line drawings of Japanese guns.
I was thinking of using Russian guns but not sure if that would be feasible vis a vis the ammunition.

Still don’t like ISOTs but the designs are mighty cool! 👍😎
 
Not related to the tanks themselves, but interesting: the UK and Canada did test depleted uranium alloy APDS cores out of the 20pdr, 105 and 120mm guns, the latter in 1963.

Compared to W-Ni-Cu tungsten alloy and tungsten carbide, DU was way better against a 100mm plate at 53°, being able to penetrate it at 3870 yards instead of 2000m for tungsten alloy and 1500m for carbide, out of the 20pdr.
Out of the 105 and 120, the allegedly later trials showed that DU performed worse than tungsten alloy against homogenous steel but as well against spaced targets, although with few shots fired in trials.
unknown.png

unknown.png


DU seemingly performed worse due to less well understood manufacturing processes and lower length-to-diameter ratio (higher density for the same APDS weight for proper stabilization, so shorter).

The British also tested a W-Ni-Fe alloy, which the US used for all of their late 60s tungsten APFSDS, the Germans for all of their APFSDS (testing in 60s too), and the Soviet Union in BM-26 125mm APFSDS cores (France too).

Weirdly enough, the British kept W-Ni-Cu for their APDS and L23A1 APFSDS but tested W-Ni-Fe for it. W-Ni-Fe is vastly superior due to much greater elongation of 18-20% which means it breaks up far less. W-Ni-Cu is almost as brittle as tungsten carbide (elongation 2-3%), but softer so worse against vertical targets than carbide.
tFGwDnmFWTA.jpg

One can only wonder how much better would further developped W-Ni-Fe or DU APDS and L23A1 be...
Maybe L15 120mm APDS with these alloys would really threaten T-64 in the 1970s...

Interesting although I think you should, for your own health, make it abundantly clear that the documents you have posted are redacted/declassified releases. Posting official documents with ‘secret’ and/or ‘confidential’ on them is never a great idea. 🤔😳
 
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