Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 2
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Small detail - learned from T-14 - why fume extractor for the gun if the crew is all in the main hull ?
No visible machine gun for pesky infantry with ATGM's.
Want to deal trucks with that gun ? Again no MG / HMG visible.
Design is very nice, BTW, i just have a thing for small details....
No visible machine gun for pesky infantry with ATGM's.
Want to deal trucks with that gun ? Again no MG / HMG visible.
Design is very nice, BTW, i just have a thing for small details....
Although the turret is indeed unmanned, you are still not going to want to have excessive amounts of corrosive gasses flooding the turret and ammunition stowage. The fume extractor keeps things clean, ship-shape and Bristol fashion for no loss of capability.
The obvious lack of an MG is, I suspect, an oversight of the originator of the drawings. I would have thought that a 7.62mm co-axial would be standard, as a minimum.
Shouldn't any self respecting British MBT's name start with a C? Cataphract? Cuirassier? Cateran? Claymore
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Quick! Which of those Claymore pics is a self portrait?Shouldn't any self respecting British MBT's name start with a C? Cataphract? Cuirassier? Cateran? Claymore
Shouldn't any self respecting British MBT's name start with a C? Cataphract? Cuirassier? Cateran? Claymore
You are probably, indeed almost certainly, correct. I haven’t given the vehicle any name as it is actually a Jordanian design concept based on a Challenger hull (Al Hussein) mounting a proposed Mk3 Falcon turret. The Mk2 Falcon turret has already been trialled on the Al Hussein and is a development of the original Falcon turret which was trialled on a Centurion (Tariq) hull.
Although come to think of it, perhaps ‘Claymore’ would be a suitable name for the British variant.
I have this funny (and perhaps borderline ASB to some people) idea of a post-WWII tank having some features of a WWI tank like tracks that go over the hull and sponson turrets, though the only situation I can think of having a tank like that is if a conventional war that may or may not be WWIII ends up being a stalemate ala WWI with trench warfare and the tank in question is the only type to break through them.
Something like that but more "down to earth" and not too obvious.Or... it's some sort of WH40K idea.
Actually. ... I think I've seen some inter-war ideas of simply putting a turret on a British 'Rhomboid' tank.
Also, some one posted a picture of a machine the French put together just after WW II which has features of 'Old' and 'New' fused together into a strange asthetics.
Perhapse we can jog some memories and get a link?
Not sure of the details
This is probably what you are thinking of...
The development of the tank began before the end of 1944 from the basis of clandestine studies pursued under the German occupation, and the first was built in 1946 at the Atelier de Rueil arsenal, after which it was designated ARL 44. Production of 600 was planned, but only 60 were actually built between 1947 and 1949. One tank regiment was equipped with them in 1950, but their service life was short as they did not prove entirely satisfactory, being a mixture of new and old components rapidly put together. The former consisted of an adaptation of a 90mm anti-aircraft gun, which made the 50-tonne ARL 44 well armed while the latter were exemplified by the obsolete type of running gear that resembled that of the Char B of the 1930s and made ARL 44 look distinctly old fashioned. Nevertheless, ARL 44 served to restart French tank industry as a char de transition.
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Sorry mate but I think you are going to have to set up camp in the ASB domain as I can think of absolutely no situation post WW2 leading to a potential WW3 where such a vehicle would be required or even contemplated. The closest a modern conflict has come to de-evolving back into WW1-like trench warfare was probably the Iran/Iraq War of the 80s but even then the AFVs remained entirely conventional.
Consider the following:
- The absolute last thing you want to do to your AFVs is to turn them into lumbering, tactical monstrosities.
- A tank's primary purpose, beyond supporting the infantry, is to exploit breakthroughs (see Blitzkrieg, Deep Battle or Manoeuvre Warfare concepts).
- Trenches are but a defensive obstacle used to protect vital ground and not a centre of gravity in themselves.
- Just about all military tactical doctrine these days shuns attrition as a means of defeating the enemy (ie you don't attack where the enemy is strongest). You bypass, encircle, drive on and reduce at your leisure.
- Whilst this was extremely difficult to achieve in WW1 (mechanical limitations and constrained to the horizontal plain), this is no longer the case. Even in WW2 the use of airborne forces allowed defensive positions to be bypassed and nowadays airmobile formations make extended trench formations entirely redundant.
- Modern bridging and fascines techniques and equipment no longer necessitate AFV being able to cross wide trenches by themselves.
- Concentrating your infantry into very obvious trench systems provides an excellent target for modern precision weapons.
- etc, etc, etc...
Claymore a possible tank ?
You future British overall design one but...
Engine is MTU 1500hp (phase 1) up to MTU 1650hp (production engine / 1st upgrade) - actual leo 2 engine and today latest evolution proposed by MTU.
gun - fiction 140mm L51 - double autoloader like proposed
Gun can be the 120mm L44 IMI in the prototype phase.
From design - Heavy Trophy variant included - designed at same time - fruit of collaboration with Israel.
7.62 coaxial.
RWS with several option - .50 cal, 20 / 30mm (most probable 20 or 25mm, 30 is too heavy) gun , 40mm grenade launcher (HV 40x53mm variant). Just swap the RWS, plug and play system.
Heavy ERA.
Crew - 3 in the chassis.
Weight ? - 55 up to 60 i think.
All around all weather / day / night / thermal cameras.
Very expensive.
Start to appear - prototype - in 2005.
You future British overall design one but...
Engine is MTU 1500hp (phase 1) up to MTU 1650hp (production engine / 1st upgrade) - actual leo 2 engine and today latest evolution proposed by MTU.
gun - fiction 140mm L51 - double autoloader like proposed
Gun can be the 120mm L44 IMI in the prototype phase.
From design - Heavy Trophy variant included - designed at same time - fruit of collaboration with Israel.
7.62 coaxial.
RWS with several option - .50 cal, 20 / 30mm (most probable 20 or 25mm, 30 is too heavy) gun , 40mm grenade launcher (HV 40x53mm variant). Just swap the RWS, plug and play system.
Heavy ERA.
Crew - 3 in the chassis.
Weight ? - 55 up to 60 i think.
All around all weather / day / night / thermal cameras.
Very expensive.
Start to appear - prototype - in 2005.
Claymore a possible tank ?
You future British overall design one but...
Engine is MTU 1500hp (phase 1) up to MTU 1650hp (production engine / 1st upgrade) - actual leo 2 engine and today latest evolution proposed by MTU.
gun - fiction 140mm L51 - double autoloader like proposed
Gun can be the 120mm L44 IMI in the prototype phase.
From design - Heavy Trophy variant included - designed at same time - fruit of collaboration with Israel.
7.62 coaxial.
RWS with several option - .50 cal, 20 / 30mm (most probable 20 or 25mm, 30 is too heavy) gun , 40mm grenade launcher (HV 40x53mm variant). Just swap the RWS, plug and play system.
Heavy ERA.
Crew - 3 in the chassis.
Weight ? - 55 up to 60 i think.
All around all weather / day / night / thermal cameras.
Very expensive.
Start to appear - prototype - in 2005.
My but I like your thinking!
Good point, I always figured it'd be really next to impossible for OTL's militaries to revert to a WWI mentality barring some apocalypse or somethin'.
To be fair though, and I might be the only one here believing this, I like to think that sponsons might make a comeback given the technology with unmanned systems and that they might make good weapons for anti-insurgent purposes when put on IFVs and APCs.
Oki - history behind that tank proposal
Soon after the initial production of the Elefante Mk.2, the federation start to design a new tank. This is a brand new model, the old Centurion – based design clearly achieved is limit.
Like many proposals of the 90’s, they go for an unnamed turret and bigger gun with autoloader.
The initial prototype have all crew in the main hull, a variant of the 120mm IMI gun with autoloader and an 7.62mm MG coaxial. Engine is an 1100hp MTU variant. The new Trophy APS / ADS system that Israel’s Rafael is designing is incorporated, but, taking advantage of the tank still in planning, the system is fully incorporated, not an add-on.
But, soon, the possibilities of new tech / design start to be perceived and the design is heavily modified.
Never satisfied that they need to get an Israel gun, the team that developed the older 105mm L62 continued to work, introduced also a 120mm gun, but too late and incompatible with the turret in use. Continuing they research, they are finishing a 140mm L51 that they call superior to any tank gun in service. The second generation turret now have – 1 140mm L51 gun (40 rounds + 8 missiles), a 7.62mm MG coaxial and a 30mm gun with 250 rounds also coaxial, and a RWS station that can use many different weapons (5.56, 7.62, 12.7, 20mm or 40x53mm grenade launcher) in a plug-n-play system. The RWS is similar to the german FLW system of OTL, but with a weight of 520kg and an elevation of 75º+. The 30mm coaxial is a variant of the one used in the fighters, but with a much reduced fire rate (‘only’ 300 rpm, instead of 1300).
The missiles are initially based on the LAHAT, but taking full advantage of the bigger diameter of the gun (140mm v 120mm) they are faster and have anti-helicopter capabilities.
The engine is upgraded to the more recent and capable 1500hp MTU (Leo 2) with an eye in the 1650hp in development. Engine compartment is modified to fast exchange and incorporate IR reduction measures. APU also included.
Crew compartment is heavily modified to include a galley (heat system for food), bed (enough space on the floor for one crew sleep at time) and toilette (very compact like in the SU-34).
Latest armor, ERA, IED protection and sensors are also incorporated.
Final design weights 58 tons and start initial production (aka advanced prototype phase) in late 2005. Very expensive, so much that production is in doubt.
Note..: Ammo – 7.62 / 3000, 30mm / 250, 140mm / 40 + 8 missiles. RWS – depend of configuration.
In my story several Israeli systems appear sooner because the portuguese federation participates in the research / funding.
Claymore - think can made a design based on that one and this data, pretty please ? The final one if possible
A 'bit' too ambitious ? Is based on many post-Cold WAR MBT's (strong influence from Strv 2000, T-14 and Merkava 4).
Soon after the initial production of the Elefante Mk.2, the federation start to design a new tank. This is a brand new model, the old Centurion – based design clearly achieved is limit.
Like many proposals of the 90’s, they go for an unnamed turret and bigger gun with autoloader.
The initial prototype have all crew in the main hull, a variant of the 120mm IMI gun with autoloader and an 7.62mm MG coaxial. Engine is an 1100hp MTU variant. The new Trophy APS / ADS system that Israel’s Rafael is designing is incorporated, but, taking advantage of the tank still in planning, the system is fully incorporated, not an add-on.
But, soon, the possibilities of new tech / design start to be perceived and the design is heavily modified.
Never satisfied that they need to get an Israel gun, the team that developed the older 105mm L62 continued to work, introduced also a 120mm gun, but too late and incompatible with the turret in use. Continuing they research, they are finishing a 140mm L51 that they call superior to any tank gun in service. The second generation turret now have – 1 140mm L51 gun (40 rounds + 8 missiles), a 7.62mm MG coaxial and a 30mm gun with 250 rounds also coaxial, and a RWS station that can use many different weapons (5.56, 7.62, 12.7, 20mm or 40x53mm grenade launcher) in a plug-n-play system. The RWS is similar to the german FLW system of OTL, but with a weight of 520kg and an elevation of 75º+. The 30mm coaxial is a variant of the one used in the fighters, but with a much reduced fire rate (‘only’ 300 rpm, instead of 1300).
The missiles are initially based on the LAHAT, but taking full advantage of the bigger diameter of the gun (140mm v 120mm) they are faster and have anti-helicopter capabilities.
The engine is upgraded to the more recent and capable 1500hp MTU (Leo 2) with an eye in the 1650hp in development. Engine compartment is modified to fast exchange and incorporate IR reduction measures. APU also included.
Crew compartment is heavily modified to include a galley (heat system for food), bed (enough space on the floor for one crew sleep at time) and toilette (very compact like in the SU-34).
Latest armor, ERA, IED protection and sensors are also incorporated.
Final design weights 58 tons and start initial production (aka advanced prototype phase) in late 2005. Very expensive, so much that production is in doubt.
Note..: Ammo – 7.62 / 3000, 30mm / 250, 140mm / 40 + 8 missiles. RWS – depend of configuration.
In my story several Israeli systems appear sooner because the portuguese federation participates in the research / funding.
Claymore - think can made a design based on that one and this data, pretty please ? The final one if possible
A 'bit' too ambitious ? Is based on many post-Cold WAR MBT's (strong influence from Strv 2000, T-14 and Merkava 4).
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What do you need a 140 mm gun for that can't be handled with a 120 mm or 125 mm tank gun? Are there any nearby countries with tanks that would be difficult for a 120 mm gun to deal with?
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