Alternate Ethnic/Linguistic Groups

[Kumarbi]

lately I have been researching ethnogenesis and it's relation to historical events. I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas for alternate or new ethnic or linguistic groups and what the point of divergence that eventuallly creates them would be.

Examples

Other surviving Chinese ethnic groups (Cantonese, Shanghaiese)
Colonial ethnic groups (Afrikaners)
Ethno-relgious communities (Druze, Yazidis, Amish)

 

[Arkenfolm]

Other surviving Chinese ethnic groups (Cantonese, Shanghaiese)

The Sichuanese, speaking Ba-Shu Chinese? It seems like an interesting concept, based on what little I know of it.

 

[LSCatilina]

Germani

Other names : Celto-Teutoni, Keltoteutonoi
Ethymology : "The Neighbours"
Region : Rhineland*
History and description : first mentioned by Poseidonios of Apameia in the first century as Keltoteutonoi, than by Cornelius the Younger as Germani in his account of Roman wars in Gaul, they were historically considered as a mix of Celtic and Teuton people, with a Teutonian aristocracy. Nowadays, they're largely considered as a peripherical Celtic geopolitical ensemble where the Teutonian element was importantly Celtized. One of his best known leaders, Ariovisto, created an hegemony spawning on both banks of the Rhine and that lasted until the expedition of Gaïus Alba ended with the conquest of eastern Gaul.

From then, Germani as a people is seldom mentioned in the Ist century AD contrary to tribal names.
The modern state of "Germania" used the ancient name to avoid the use of Rhineland that was considered tying the new nation to the Teutonian claim on the region.

*ITTL, both banks of the Rhine : Rhineland proper, plus Alsace, Lorraine, Switzerland, etc.
The description is roughly equivalent to what we know about Rhineland peoples before the Cesarian conquest, meaning an heavily celtized population on both banks of the Rhine. The difference are that Poseidonios create a specific name for the peoples living there, on the model of Celto-Ligurians, and that Caesar fails to conquers Gaul meaning Romans abided by slightly different georegional concepts.
"Germania" ITTL is a rough equivalent to Belgium, especially its use of an ancient name. "Teutoni" are IOTL Germans.

Basically, pointing out how ethnogenesis can be both an objective fact, but its use and perennity in reality can be heavily dependent on subjective tendencies.​

 

[PhilippeO]

some 18/19th centuries new religion might emerge as new ethno-religious groups : Sikhs, Mormons, Ahmadiyah, Tenrikyo in Japan, Taiping Chinese, Cao Dai and Hao Hao in Vietnam, etc

 

[Kumarbi]

some 18/19th centuries new religion might emerge as new ethno-religious groups : Sikhs, Mormons, Ahmadiyah, Tenrikyo in Japan, Taiping Chinese, Cao Dai and Hao Hao in Vietnam, etc

The idea of a Mormon ethnic group is very interesting idea.
There story actually mirrors that of the Afrikaners in many ways. Though the Afrikaners never cooperated with the natives like the Mormons did.

Would make for a good TL.

 

[WotanArgead]

Maltese -People speaking Romano-Semitic language.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

If Italy had remained divided, the subtle linguistic differences between the Italian states could develop into full-blown independent languages and ethnic groups. You might see Venetian Italian becoming influenced by Austrian German, Genoese Italian influenced by French and Occitan, and of course Neapolitan heavily influenced by Catalan and Spanish.

As for 'alternate Afrikaaners', it would be interesting if there was a French trek west after the British conquered New France in the Seven Years War, resulting in an inter-mingling with the natives, swapping languages, and eventually, like the Afrikaaners, emerging as their own distinctive group.

 

[PhilippeO]

As for 'alternate Afrikaaners', it would be interesting if there was a French trek west after the British conquered New France in the Seven Years War, resulting in an inter-mingling with the natives, swapping languages, and eventually, like the Afrikaaners, emerging as their own distinctive group.

the Metis ? they exist OTL

for other alternate Afrikaner, 'Indo' Dutch on Indonesia, half-british on India and Burma (they become caste of railroad worker) exist in OTL. less violent anti-colonial struggle might cause this group to be larger than OTL and didn't return after Independence e, preserving them as ethnic groups .

Dutch in Taiwan, larger Portuguese presence in Macao, Rus settlement in Manchuria all with different timeline could survive as larger ethnic groups.

 

[Napoleonrules]

Please understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Many of the examples here (Bowers for example) are examples of nationality groups and not ethnic. Ethnogenesis requires distinct geneticly determined differences (skin color, facial features, body structure), not cultural/linguistic/religious. Metis and Hispanics are two good examples of ethnogenesis, intermarriage between two racial groups. Boers are just white people. Mormons possibly long shot due to inbreeding and lack out outsiders coming in, similar to Jews becoming an ethnic group of the Semetic race. Stereotype of blonde hair shows a start in that direction. But they became highly proselytizing and have "fresh blood" coming in constantly.

 

[Tripledot]

Please understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Many of the examples here (Bowers for example) are examples of nationality groups and not ethnic. Ethnogenesis requires distinct geneticly determined differences (skin color, facial features, body structure), not cultural/linguistic/religious. Metis and Hispanics are two good examples of ethnogenesis, intermarriage between two racial groups. Boers are just white people. Mormons possibly long shot due to inbreeding and lack out outsiders coming in, similar to Jews becoming an ethnic group of the Semetic race. Stereotype of blonde hair shows a start in that direction. But they became highly proselytizing and have "fresh blood" coming in constantly.

I think you're confusing ethnicity and race. Bosniaks and Serbians are pretty much the same people genetically speaking, but they are certainly not the same ethnic group.

 

[Neoteros]

If Italy had remained divided, the subtle linguistic differences between the Italian states could develop into full-blown independent languages and ethnic groups. You might see Venetian Italian becoming influenced by Austrian German, Genoese Italian influenced by French and Occitan, and of course Neapolitan heavily influenced by Catalan and Spanish.

As for 'alternate Afrikaaners', it would be interesting if there was a French trek west after the British conquered New France in the Seven Years War, resulting in an inter-mingling with the natives, swapping languages, and eventually, like the Afrikaaners, emerging as their own distinctive group.

Actually...

...the so-called Italian "dialects" (actually, languages) don't even belong to the same branch of the Romance language tree. And until half a century ago, most people in Italy didn't even speak Italian (actually, Tuscan) as their first language. It's only Savoyard/Fascist/Republican cultural genocide and forced assimilation that (almost) wiped out ethnic and linguistic differences. And it's a shame.

A democratic and federal unification of Italy might've done a lot to preserve the peninsula's languages (Lombard is still very much alive in Switzerland's "Italian" region, after all), maybe less immigration from the South to the North in the 1950s might've done it, too.

 

[Timaeus]

Surviving Helleno-Tocharians in an alt-Korea ruled by the house of Alexander? I mean, I know it's a long shot, but still.

More likely, surviving Bactrian Greeks, perhaps?

 

[XFE]

Surviving Helleno-Tocharians in an alt-Korea ruled by the house of Alexander? I mean, I know it's a long shot, but still.

More likely, surviving Bactrian Greeks, perhaps?

Alternatively, Wiman Joeson flees following the Han conquest westwards through Xiongnu lands (alliance against the Han maybe?) to Bactria

 

[Arkenfolm]

Maltese -People speaking Romano-Semitic language.

I think you'd have to avoid the Arab settlement of Malta, otherwise wouldn't they just be speaking a slightly odd dialect of Sicilian?

On the other hand, it's probably plausible for the Maltese to speak an African Romance language, considering it seems like the island OTL spoke Punic into Late Antiquity which under Romanisation might evolve into something resembling an African Romance language, despite the island's link with Sicily as opposed to Africa. However, it's equally or perhaps more plausible for the Maltese to end up Punic speakers instead, effectively making them the last remnant of Carthage. No clue how Maltese Punic would evolve from the Punic of Late Antiquity, but if it's anything like OTL Maltese (Arabic), then it'd have quite a heavy influence from other languages.

 

[WotanArgead]

I think you'd have to avoid the Arab settlement of Malta, otherwise wouldn't they just be speaking a slightly odd dialect of Sicilian?

On the other hand, it's probably plausible for the Maltese to speak an African Romance language, considering it seems like the island OTL spoke Punic into Late Antiquity which under Romanisation might evolve into something resembling an African Romance language, despite the island's link with Sicily as opposed to Africa. However, it's equally or perhaps more plausible for the Maltese to end up Punic speakers instead, effectively making them the last remnant of Carthage. No clue how Maltese Punic would evolve from the Punic of Late Antiquity, but if it's anything like OTL Maltese (Arabic), then it'd have quite a heavy influence from other languages.

I thought about the pre-Arab population.

 

[WotanArgead]

Surviving Helleno-Tocharians in an alt-Korea ruled by the house of Alexander? I mean, I know it's a long shot, but still.

More likely, surviving Bactrian Greeks, perhaps?

Survival of the Hellenes in the Middle East is unlikely, even with the most benevolent conditions. They are simply not enough to create a stable population. Even many Bactrian kings had Persian appearance. campaign of Alexander and the Diadochi in China - pure fiction.

But survival Tochars - an interesting topic.

 

[Augenis]

Well, if the Baltic tribes participated in the Early Medieval Migration Period more snagging, say, OTL Poland and Pomerania in the process, or managed to coalesce into a state before the Slavic migrations (not particularly impossible, you mainly need to have the Amber Road to be a much bigger trade route than IRL), then we'd likely see the Balts remain a large enough culture group to possibly splinter East-West. Giving you two brand new ethno-linguistic groups.

Of course, if the Balts were more numerous and influential, we wouldn't call them "Balts" anymore, because the term is a 19th century creation and a bigger Baltic ethnic group would probably give itself an ethnonym by itself.

 

[Timaeus]

campaign of Alexander and the Diadochi in China - pure fiction.

Got it from a whimsical and semi-plausible AHC from long ago where Alexander is overthrown by a Persian conspiracy of satraps (ITTL, the Diadochi never rise, and a resurgent Persian Empire conquers Greece again) and he leads a remnant of his expeditionary force in exile to the east, where he gathers the Tocharians and basically becomes a horselord mercenary until he gets to Joseon and carves out is own little kingdom on the periphery of the Warring States of China.

 

[ramones1986]

S
But surviving Tocharians - an interesting topic.

Especially the way they dress: a variant of Hanfu with some minor modifications.
(and they could be the best possible alternative to JPop and KPop in Europe and the Americas. )

 

[Timaeus]

Especially the way they dress: a variant of Hanfu with some minor modifications.
(and they could be the best possible alternative to JPop and KPop in Europe and the Americas. )

Would their language still be recognizable as Indo-European at that point, one wonders?