Alternate Battle of Lorraine 1914

How will TTL battle of Lorraine end?

  • Germany wins and then invades France.

    Votes: 101 42.4%
  • Stalemate along more or less the existing border.

    Votes: 103 43.3%
  • France wins and advances to the Rhineland.

    Votes: 34 14.3%

  • Total voters
    238
Part 3/5, 21 to 27 August:

On 21 August, Germany launches the inevitable counter-offensive with attacks from the directions of Metz and Strassburg. The French are completely taken by surprise by the heavy bombardments with howitzers and mortars and suffer great losses. In chaos, the French retreat across the border, pursued by the German divisions. As a result, the spearhead of the 2nd Army is enveloped by the German armies on 25 August. An attempt to break out quickly proves to have no chance, as they are outnumbered against the Germans. On 27 August, the surrender of three complete army corps, a total of 180,000 men, followed. The remnants of the 2nd Army regroup around Manonviller.

Further north, the French 5th Army is slowly advancing towards Luxembourg / Diedenhofen, hampered by fierce German resistance in the hills of the German-Luxembourg border area. The IV Corps eventually reach the Moselle via the Orne valley and is able to blow up the important railway line Diedenhofen-Metz. However, the offensive stalls after only 5 days.

The French are more successful in the Alsace. The Germans are clearly outnumbered here and are forced to retreat towards Strassburg.

BattleofLorraine3.jpg

map updated on October 22, 2022
 
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Part 4/5, 28 August to 3 September:

The near-total destruction of the 2nd Army is a heavy blow to Joffre. However, he is not giving up the fight yet. The 4th Army, deploying the 'Corps Colonial', is able to stop the German advance and thus prevent Manonviller from being surrounded. However, the fortress of Manonviller come under heavy German artillery fire and will be virtually destroyed. Joffre reinforces the frontline with the 2nd and 4th Reserve Groups. More to the south-east the 1st army is able to stop the German advance towards St. Dié.

The Moselle offensive also ends in disaster. The IV Corps, which was able to reach the Moselle, appears to have fallen into a death trap. It is bombarded by German artillery from three sides, Metz, Diedenhofen and the east bank. When the German XVI Corps advances to Briey, it blocks the retreat of the French IV Corps. The IV Corps is almost completely destroyed and the remnants surrender. From Luxembourg, the German 5th Army launches a counter-offensive, after which the French 5th Army has to withdraw over the border with heavy losses. Longwy is encircled by the Germans.

Only in the Alsace are the French still advancing. On 3 September, the Alsace army stands at the gates of Strassburg. After their victory in Lorraine, however, the Germans are able to free up troops, which are sent to Strasbourg and the eastern bank of the Rhine. This in preparation for a counter-offensive in Alsace.

BattleofLorraine4.jpg

map updated on October 22, 2022
 
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Part 5/5, 4 to 10 September:

On 4 September, Joffre orders the 1st and 2nd Army to attack again. In particular, the German bulge in the front line towards St. Dié is targeted. The Germans are outnumbered here and withdraw towards the border, where they already prepared trenches. The French attacks are bloodily repulsed here by German machine guns.

On 7 September, Longwy is forced to surrender after being completely destroyed by German Howitzers. After this, the front line also stabilizes here.

On 5 September, the German counter-offensive in the Alsace starts. German divisions have crossed the Rhine in several places, threatening supply lines of the Alsace army. To prevent another massacre, the French hastily retreat into the Vosges, abandoning their heavy equipment and artillery. The German 8th Army chases the French across the border. Only in the south are the French able to maintain a small part of the Alsace occupied.

Along the entire front line, the Germans are digging in. It becomes painfully clear to Joffre that he lacks the howitzers and mortars to break through these trenches.

BattleofLorraine5.jpg

map updated on October 22, 2022
 
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I love your use of maps to show details. However, there are a few issues with the scenario that may in part stem from minor issues of including certain available troops. First, German combat power is greatly overestimated. The French, while no doubt running into some nasty surprises and have the burden of the offensive, still have overall more combat power. This, together with high troop densities, would prevent anything larger than maybe a brigade from being surrounded. Think about it: even in the highly mobile historical situation with lower troop densities and the Germans having a better ratio of combat power (despite the addition of the British), there were no large-scale battles involving the surrounding and annihilation on the west front. Even in the east front in a far more permissive environment, this was only accomplished in Tannenberg due to a very special combination of circumstances.

Thus, it is likely that after some tactical defeats in Germany, the Germans would retake some ground in a counteroffensive, but not all the way into France (and certainly not to the historical front line in many areas during which the French transferred a great deal of combat power to their left wing after the failed offensives). The German counterattacks, after some initial success catching the French out of position, would ultimately be defeated as well. At this point, the French would eventually regroup and attack again, making very little progress, but certainly leaving the winter lines uniformly in German territory with perhaps a small bulge between Metz and Strassburg that becomes quite stable for much of the war.

Of course, to be fair to the Germans, I think you also underestimate the amount of combat power they could bring to bear south of Strassburg (plus some forts in the area are not shown). There would be two corps of regular forces, plus some reserve and fortress troops. The French advance would be far less rapid. They could likely reach the Rhine, but this would then stabilize for most of the war, not be counterattacked so effectively. The French would perhaps crawl into Kolmar by the end of a bloody campaign here, perhaps a bit further north if the German commander was more nervous that average in the initial period).

Finally, one more minor quibble, the German armies from north to south (at least in the von Stabbs plan) would be designated mostly as historically: 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th (the 9th army being designated as a full army after the others, but I suppose it is possible that it could still be the 7th as it was historically named).
 
I love your use of maps to show details. However, there are a few issues with the scenario that may in part stem from minor issues of including certain available troops. First, German combat power is greatly overestimated. The French, while no doubt running into some nasty surprises and have the burden of the offensive, still have overall more combat power. This, together with high troop densities, would prevent anything larger than maybe a brigade from being surrounded. Think about it: even in the highly mobile historical situation with lower troop densities and the Germans having a better ratio of combat power (despite the addition of the British), there were no large-scale battles involving the surrounding and annihilation on the west front. Even in the east front in a far more permissive environment, this was only accomplished in Tannenberg due to a very special combination of circumstances.
Thank you! I am aware that there are many butterflies, and that the battle may have turned out differently in detail. In any case, we agree that the battle will end in a stalemate along more or less the existing border. Much also depends on the performance of the French army and to what extent Joffre is stupid enough to create a deep bulge...

Thus, it is likely that after some tactical defeats in Germany, the Germans would retake some ground in a counteroffensive, but not all the way into France (and certainly not to the historical front line in many areas during which the French transferred a great deal of combat power to their left wing after the failed offensives). The German counterattacks, after some initial success catching the French out of position, would ultimately be defeated as well. At this point, the French would eventually regroup and attack again, making very little progress, but certainly leaving the winter lines uniformly in German territory with perhaps a small bulge between Metz and Strassburg that becomes quite stable for much of the war.
Agree, this is also a plausible outcome. In my scenario, I have already let the German counter-offensive get less far into France compared to OTL.

Of course, to be fair to the Germans, I think you also underestimate the amount of combat power they could bring to bear south of Strassburg (plus some forts in the area are not shown). There would be two corps of regular forces, plus some reserve and fortress troops. The French advance would be far less rapid. They could likely reach the Rhine, but this would then stabilize for most of the war, not be counterattacked so effectively. The French would perhaps crawl into Kolmar by the end of a bloody campaign here, perhaps a bit further north if the German commander was more nervous that average in the initial period).
I have limited myself on the map to the army corps level. Not all reserves, Landwehr and fortress troops are on the map, this applies to both sides. Indeed, fortifications along the Rhine are not on the map either, because they were outdated and irrelevant AFAIK.
In OTL, Joffre canceled the offensive in the Alsace in order to transfer troops to the west. In TTL it seems quite possible to me that the Alsace army will push much further towards Strasbourg. I expect that the German army first wants to push back the invasion of Lorraine and then free up troops for a counter-offensive in the Alsace.

Finally, one more minor quibble, the German armies from north to south (at least in the von Stabbs plan) would be designated mostly as historically: 4th, 5th, 6th, and 9th (the 9th army being designated as a full army after the others, but I suppose it is possible that it could still be the 7th as it was historically named).
I understand from this source that the German armies did not get their number until mobilization. In OTL a logical numbering from 1 to 7 was chosen. So I made a logical numbering from 1 to 4. The numbering of the army corps on the map do largely correspond to OTL.
 
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Well, I do think that the French will end up holding some ground in Germany. The ground will be mostly meaningless, of course (aside from some iron mines northwest of Metz). My interpretation of the initiation dispositions (showing corps) and final dispositions (blue line) are shown on your map. Sorry for horribly mangling it.

Note the changes to German deployments. This is in line with the historical von Stabbs plan and would likely have been the deployment for a east-first campaign. It is possible that some of the more northerly corps would be deployed to the area in between Metz and Strasbourg instead. More reinforcements would certainly end up in this area, since it presents the best terrain to attack. Note that while the current German deployment seems a bit thin here (and in Alsace), three ersatz corps will enter as reinforcements in August (really six divisions), and these are pretty robust. Some of the northerly corps will be guarding the Belgian border, though these will likely be rotating in and out of combat. Note also the greater German combat power that starts in Alsace. This was the historical 7th army and has an identical disposition here to the historical deployment. I agree that this is where the Germans will have to retreat the most, but these units should be able to hold Kolmar.

The French deployment is also a little different. They have many reserve units that were not part of the initial offensive and are thus not shown on the map. They will be screening the Belgian border initially, so I expect that all five of the French 5th army's regular corps will be part of the initial assault. Note the lack of troops opposite Metz. The French knew it would be suicide to attack into all those forts. The rest of the forts on the front line are an inconvenience, but not an insurmountable obstacle. This is also why the Germans did not deploy many regular divisions in the area. They didn't need to. After the initial fighting, more regular units would eventually fill in the front line in this region, and French super-heavy artillery (more plentiful because of the better French war economy combined with greater need) will eventually pose a threat to these forts. There might be a Verdun-like battle here in 1916.

Initially, the French offensive north of Metz will probably fail due to the high amount of German combat power here. The offensive in Lorraine east of Metz will gain some ground and then lose some in a German counterattack (no units surrounded though). The attack into Alsace will probably gain and hold ground, perhaps after a false start. After this, fighting will slow a bit, and greater French numbers (remember, only corps are shown on the map and only the Germans organized reserve corps in their initial deployment - the French have many reserve units not shown and more North African units coming in) will see some slow advances that reach the shown lines. The body count certainly will favor the Germans, but both sides will experience very heavy casualties. Most later German reinforcement units in 1914 will go to the west front, mostly the area between Metz and Strasbourg. The French will also add many reserve units to their order of battle in 1914. Starting in 1915, the west front will have a very recognizable nature, but even more due to the high concentration of forces (and the worse terrain, on average).
 

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Well, I do think that the French will end up holding some ground in Germany. The ground will be mostly meaningless, of course (aside from some iron mines northwest of Metz). My interpretation of the initiation dispositions (showing corps) and final dispositions (blue line) are shown on your map. Sorry for horribly mangling it.
I have no idea about deployment, but i agree, that a frontline similar to what you drew on the map is likely. However i would think that all the iron fields in lorraine (exept maybe for the ones around Nancy) would be too close to the Battlefield to be of any use. Mining is dependent on a lot of heavy infrastructure easily damaged by artillery.
 
In general yes, but the artillery needs to be observed and quite close to really close the mines. Historically, the Germans got a lot of critical ore from the mines in France north and east of Verdun. In this scenario, the French will keep those mines, avoding any iron shortages. It will be the Germans suffering from lack of iron from these mines and others that the French capture (or get close enough to shell), even if the French themselves can't make use of them all. Of course, other factors can work in the Germans favor in a longer war, but iron will be much more of an issue than in the historical WWI.
 

Riain

Banned
An observation i'd make is that Germany (mostly, some other powers do too) gets a lot of shit about not making 'War Plans' like capturing mining regions, ports, rail hubs, stockpiling nitrates and other strategic materials and so on. They were too narrow minded and focused only on winning battles.

Yet here was have 10 pages of EXACTLY that, people arguing black and blue about Tactical and sometimes Operational minutiae; like how many trains could cross a particular bridge, what time did some British minister say this or that, what day Russia agreed to attack with France and how binding that agreement was in this or that circumstance.

I'm certainly not going to say the details are unimportant, the saying 'the devil is in the details' is so true yet so ignored, but nobody seems to add up these details and draw trends or capabilities from them. Rather they seem to be used as weapons in an inverse dick measuring contest, as if the smallest fact makes for the biggest dick.

Can anyone gather up their collections of minutiae and develop an overarching theme/s or statements on capability with it?
 

Riain

Banned
On a tangent, I assume it's possible for the Germans to draw the French into a sack and do a 'Tannenburg' on the Franco-German border? If so I also assume it can be done while the right wing is undertaking it's huge envelopment through Belgium because a similar number of Armies will be on the frontier in either plan.

So what happens if the German left wing armies draw the French in and attempt an encirclement rather than pretty much stopping them at the border? Can the Germans take a Frecnh field army off the board in August in this fashion, and if so what happens at the Marne?
 
In general yes, but the artillery needs to be observed and quite close to really close the mines. Historically, the Germans got a lot of critical ore from the mines in France north and east of Verdun. In this scenario, the French will keep those mines, avoding any iron shortages. It will be the Germans suffering from lack of iron from these mines and others that the French capture (or get close enough to shell), even if the French themselves can't make use of them all. Of course, other factors can work in the Germans favor in a longer war, but iron will be much more of an issue than in the historical WWI.
Both countries heavily relied on iron ore from lorraine. 80% of french iron ore was in french Lorraine and 68% of german ore in lorraine annexée. France has easy access to spanish ore and Germany to swedish ore. The ore in lorraine was of low quality and so because of its high weight, a large part of it was turned into steel near the mines normally in Germany and with Coal from the Ruhr (so Germany imported french ore). This will complicate the matter for both countries. Transporting coal to the area would cost valuable logistic capacity. In addition to that, France would need to set up new blast furnaces to actually be able to use the ore. Preparations ould need to be made very close to the shifting frontlines, and both countries would probably start relatively late, because they were still expecting a short war.
 
Well, I do think that the French will end up holding some ground in Germany. The ground will be mostly meaningless, of course (aside from some iron mines northwest of Metz). My interpretation of the initiation dispositions (showing corps) and final dispositions (blue line) are shown on your map. Sorry for horribly mangling it.

Note the changes to German deployments. This is in line with the historical von Stabbs plan and would likely have been the deployment for a east-first campaign. It is possible that some of the more northerly corps would be deployed to the area in between Metz and Strasbourg instead. More reinforcements would certainly end up in this area, since it presents the best terrain to attack. Note that while the current German deployment seems a bit thin here (and in Alsace), three ersatz corps will enter as reinforcements in August (really six divisions), and these are pretty robust. Some of the northerly corps will be guarding the Belgian border, though these will likely be rotating in and out of combat. Note also the greater German combat power that starts in Alsace. This was the historical 7th army and has an identical disposition here to the historical deployment. I agree that this is where the Germans will have to retreat the most, but these units should be able to hold Kolmar.

The French deployment is also a little different. They have many reserve units that were not part of the initial offensive and are thus not shown on the map. They will be screening the Belgian border initially, so I expect that all five of the French 5th army's regular corps will be part of the initial assault. Note the lack of troops opposite Metz. The French knew it would be suicide to attack into all those forts. The rest of the forts on the front line are an inconvenience, but not an insurmountable obstacle. This is also why the Germans did not deploy many regular divisions in the area. They didn't need to. After the initial fighting, more regular units would eventually fill in the front line in this region, and French super-heavy artillery (more plentiful because of the better French war economy combined with greater need) will eventually pose a threat to these forts. There might be a Verdun-like battle here in 1916.

Initially, the French offensive north of Metz will probably fail due to the high amount of German combat power here. The offensive in Lorraine east of Metz will gain some ground and then lose some in a German counterattack (no units surrounded though). The attack into Alsace will probably gain and hold ground, perhaps after a false start. After this, fighting will slow a bit, and greater French numbers (remember, only corps are shown on the map and only the Germans organized reserve corps in their initial deployment - the French have many reserve units not shown and more North African units coming in) will see some slow advances that reach the shown lines. The body count certainly will favor the Germans, but both sides will experience very heavy casualties. Most later German reinforcement units in 1914 will go to the west front, mostly the area between Metz and Strasbourg. The French will also add many reserve units to their order of battle in 1914. Starting in 1915, the west front will have a very recognizable nature, but even more due to the high concentration of forces (and the worse terrain, on average).

You really messed up my map ;) But wait... Your German army deployment is almost identical to OTL 'Aufmarsch II west', except that the three armies invading Belgium are missing (see German Army order of battle (1914)). This setup is not to be expected in a defensive strategy in the west. In OTL, a strong defense of Lorraine was not a priority, as the French armies would be distracted anyway by the German advance in northern France. According to Plan XVII, the main French force attacks between Metz and the Vosges. The German defense plan is to attack and encircle the French armies invading Lorraine from the directions of Metz and Strasbourg. This is clearly explained in this post from @Athelstane.

The plan Hermann von Staabs devised after WW1 looks different again, with only 3 armies in the west between Cologne and Strasbourg, and 5 armies in the east. A little googling brought me to this interesting post by @NoMommsen in the thread 'WI: Reverse Schlieffen Plan', in which this plan is explained (including maps).

However, there were more German veterans who reconsidered the chosen strategy after WW1, such as Ludwig Beck. His plan is described in this interesting thread: 'FYI : about Ludwig Beck on "East First 1914"'. When making my maps I was inspired by Beck's plan. With this plan, three German armies are available from Metz to Strasbourg. This makes it possible to encircle the French armies IMO, provided Joffre is of course reckless enough to advance far enough towards Saarbrücken.

As for the battle north of Metz. This is a hilly terrain in which the French will not get far. Yes, the iron industry is in the middle of a war zone and will be badly damaged and useless to both Germany and France. As I have said before in this thread, French industry in the Orne valley is within range of the German fortress artillery. However, taking possession of the iron ore basin could turn into a strategic battle. I give Germany the best chances, given their heavier howitzers and mortars...
 
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Deleted member 2186

Nice work, this TL reminds me of the Gray Tide in the East: An Alternate History of the First World War which has the same scenario in some form.
 
An observation i'd make is that Germany (mostly, some other powers do too) gets a lot of shit about not making 'War Plans' like capturing mining regions, ports, rail hubs, stockpiling nitrates and other strategic materials and so on. They were too narrow minded and focused only on winning battles.

Yet here was have 10 pages of EXACTLY that, people arguing black and blue about Tactical and sometimes Operational minutiae; like how many trains could cross a particular bridge, what time did some British minister say this or that, what day Russia agreed to attack with France and how binding that agreement was in this or that circumstance.
You are right about this but we are speaking of alternate history here - the idea to plan their war around strategig resources and etc was so alien to the generals of 1914 that if we tried to propose a war plan based on that it would be either ASB or very near ASB as they were completely ignorant and unaware of these factors that could have decided the war. So unless you know of someone in the high military command of any of the participants who was aware of these issues and your POD isn't getting them into an actual planning position we have to assume the generals will be making their plans based on calculations like what are brought up here. What we can and should consider with hindsight are these unintended and possibly war deciding consequeces of the plans of the generals. But as it is we have to assume that they will make their alternate war plans not considering for example the vast majority of their iron ore mining being in the middle of the battle they are planning.
 
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Riain

Banned
You are right about this but we are speaking of alternate history here - the idea to plan their war around strategig resources and etc was so alien to the generals of 1914 that if we tried to propose a war plan based on that it would be either ASB or very near ASB as they were completely ignorant and unaware of these factors that could have decided the war. So unless you know of someone in the high military command of any of the participants who was aware of these issues and your POD isn't getting them into an actual planning position we have to assume the generals will be making their plans based on calculations like what are brought up here. What we can and should consider with hindsight are these unintended and possibly war deciding consequeces of the plans of the generals. But as it is we have to assume that they will make their alternate war plans not considering for example the vast majority of their iron ore mining being in the middle of the battle they are planning.

Its not good to capture this port, that coalfield and the other rail hub 10 minutes before you're army was encircled and destroyed. it's like logistics, they only matter to armies that have a certain tactical skill, there's no point in having awesome supply if the troops can't march or shoot.

That's not to say campaign planning couldn't have had secondary goals useful for war planning and in Germany's case bought the KM into campaign planning to give it greater depth. A KM sortie to the south and uboats on station to watch the BEF could have been very handy for the Moltke's plan, and Marines could have been included to capture the ports on the Army's flank, but the Army must focus on the French field armies first and foremost.
 
You really messed up my map ;) But wait... Your German army deployment is almost identical to OTL 'Aufmarsch II west', except that the three armies invading Belgium are missing (see German Army order of battle (1914)). This setup is not to be expected in a defensive strategy in the west. In OTL, a strong defense of Lorraine was not a priority, as the French armies would be distracted anyway by the German advance in northern France. According to Plan XVII, the main French force attacks between Metz and the Vosges. The German defense plan is to attack and encircle the French armies invading Lorraine from the directions of Metz and Strasbourg. This is clearly explained in this post from @Athelstane.

Whoops, you are right. I had this same file, but I opened the historical pdf instead of the one I was supposed to be looking at. However, this actually spreads out the German defenders even more. The historical 6th army is now responsible for the Metz fortress area (second army on your map), which may dilute some of their landwehr units or even a reserve corps. This probably won't have any real effect on the battle. The historical 5th army (3rd XXXX on your map), instead of being concentrated northwest of Metz, is spread out now and would also cover the Luxembourg front. This means that area will have a more "normal" initial German troop density, probably allowing the French to actually take more territory north of Metz and in Luxembourg before they are stopped due to their initially greater relative combat power here (though certainly only a bit more than in my map).

The German 7th army, instead of being slotted into the line in the north on my map would probably move it's HQ a little west of Strassbourg, with its units being generally spread out to solidify the front (maybe a couple reserve corps still guarding the Belgian border). This would take some time, but it would also take time for the French 4th and 5th armies to move into position, together with the German ersatz divisions. This would stabilize the front after the initial French advances, though both sides would still suffer greatly.

The plan Hermann von Staabs devised after WW1 looks different again, with only 3 armies in the west between Cologne and Strasbourg, and 5 armies in the east. A little googling brought me to this interesting post by @NoMommsen in the thread 'WI: Reverse Schlieffen Plan', in which this plan is explained (including maps).

However, there were more German veterans who reconsidered the chosen strategy after WW1, such as Ludwig Beck. His plan is described in this interesting thread: 'FYI : about Ludwig Beck on "East First 1914"'. When making my maps I was inspired by Beck's plan. With this plan, three German armies are available from Metz to Strasbourg. This makes it possible to encircle the French armies IMO, provided Joffre is of course reckless enough to advance far enough towards Saarbrücken.

This is a very different scenario. It seems on first glance to be a terrible strategic idea by the Germans based on their thinking in 1914, since there still isn't enough force for a major advance in the east, and they only have somewhat more combat power in the west on a narrow front. In the east, the moderately increased German force would likely make the Russians more cautious, avoiding Tannenburg, though the Germans could still probably advance by the end of the year and might even capture Warsaw. In the West, the exact outcome depends on the situation.

If the Germans advanced, they would run into the French in a meeting engagement. They would still win, but the strength of the defense together with mobilization of French reserved would probably stabilize the front close to where you predicted above.

If the Germans waited to defense, the ultimate outcome would be similar to the above, but the initially stronger German counterattack would push the front back a little more, keeping the fighting solidly in French territory as winter approached. The German front line in Lorraine would likely be advanced compared to the historical level, though the lack of an attack through Belgium would mean that the iron northeast of Verdun would still be in French hands.

However, you seem to be imagining a situation where the Germans are quite clever and try to suck the French deep into Lorraine before counterattacking and trying to create a cauldron battle. This seems less likely to me, since both generals and politicians are notoriously difficult about conducting withdrawals when there is not a great strategic or operational need. However, it is certainly an interesting possibility. The French here would be overextended, and they would face many more Germans than in the historical battle in the areas (and much more than the von Stabbs plan discussed above). It seems quite likely that the Germans could score a major victory, leaving the French in headlong retreat. The line might not stabilize until deeper in France. Perhaps Nancy would even become the "Verdun" of this timeline. The need for French reinforcements in this area may also allow the Germans to take more of the iron mines northeast of Verdun, though probably still not quite at the historical level,a gain, due to lack of advance from another direction and the relatively more intact French forces in the area.

However, I really do not believe that the French would have any real chance to get any of their division or larger size units surrounded, even in this favorable scenario. This sort of thing only happened twice in WWI to my knowledge, at Tannenburg and Kut. In both the scenarios, troop density was low, and armies were operating with open flanks. Here, even with greater German combat power, the French troop density is high, easily enough to cover their flanks during an advance (and clearly so high for both sides that they would never leave the flanks uncovered). The French would have reserves, and their troop quality was good, with troops in good condition. As noted above, they could easily suffer a Gorlice-Tarnow like defeat if the Germans conduct themselves well and the French poorly, with many prisoners and loss of heavy equipment. This is very different than loss of entire large units, though, which is probably just not realistically possible in this situation.

Of course, in the long run, this sort of plan could still be favorable to the Germans, even if it didn't seem that way in 1914. By keeping the west in stalemate, conducting a limited but successful campaign against Russia (so as not to make it a war of national defense, like what might happen in the von Stabbs plan - or make the Briotish fear that the balance of powerr may be severely disrupted), avoiding anything even remotely resembling provocation at sea, avoiding getting the Ottomans involved, and focusing the only really intense attack on Serbia, the Central Powers could perhaps acheive a limited but solid victory in 1915 if these measures are successful at keeping Britain out of the war. Again, though, it seems less likely that a great power in a major war would follow such a restrained path.

As for the battle north of Metz. This is a hilly terrain in which the French will not get far. Yes, the iron industry is in the middle of a war zone and will be badly damaged and useless to both Germany and France. As I have said before in this thread, French industry in the Orne valley is within range of the German fortress artillery. However, taking possession of the iron ore basin could turn into a strategic battle. I give Germany the best chances, given their heavier howitzers and mortars...
All industry and mines very close to the front would certainly be closed. Regardless of which of the above scenarios is used, though, the French are still "ahead in the iron game" compared to the historical level (even in the second scenario where the front lines end up in France).
 
I saw some discussion over whether or not the Russians had capability to bring "Case-G" as a mobilization schedule & war-plan. To this, I'd like to say that Franco-Russian intelligence had full ability to know if the Germans were going West or East, and exactly where and how the Austrians would conduct the war. Russian agents such as Alfred Redl had full access to many major war-plans, and these would immediately go to the Stavka. Furthermore, as seen in previous points, the German railway situation in Great Prussia was unfavorable and would need build-up, which, if done in peace-time, would only reinforce this point more. (Don't slaughter me I'm new to this)
 
I saw some discussion over whether or not the Russians had capability to bring "Case-G" as a mobilization schedule & war-plan. To this, I'd like to say that Franco-Russian intelligence had full ability to know if the Germans were going West or East, and exactly where and how the Austrians would conduct the war. Russian agents such as Alfred Redl had full access to many major war-plans, and these would immediately go to the Stavka. Furthermore, as seen in previous points, the German railway situation in Great Prussia was unfavorable and would need build-up, which, if done in peace-time, would only reinforce this point more. (Don't slaughter me I'm new to this)
Unfortunately the French never listened to their spy network (if they did they wouldn't have been caught off gard by the attack though Belgium) and if they spent any time looking at Germany rain roads then they also would have known where Germany was going to attack.
Also I'm pretty sure the rain road lines was good enough for what the Germans wanted to do.
 

marathag

Banned
In the east, the moderately increased German force would likely make the Russians more cautious, avoiding Tannenburg,
The Russian estimated far more Germans to be on defense in the East, and that didn't stop the uncoordinated Zerg Rush from OTL.
The ATL, there will be as many Germans defending as the Russians thought there would be, and so, no change in planning to get that steamroller headed to Berlin
 
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