Alternate Aircraft of Nations
- Thread starter Count of Crisco
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In 1935 the RAF adopts the Handley Page H.P. 47 as a general purpose bomber/torpedo bomber for service outside of Europe. The aircraft is upgraded to have a retractable undercarriage and a 900hp Bristol Pegasus engine greatly improving on the prototypes performance.
en.wikipedia.org
Handley Page H.P.47 - Wikipedia
A look only a mother could like...In 1935 the RAF adopts the Handley Page H.P. 47 as a general purpose bomber/torpedo bomber for service outside of Europe. The aircraft is upgraded to have a retractable undercarriage and a 900hp Bristol Pegasus engine greatly improving on the prototypes performance.
Handley Page H.P.47 - Wikipedia
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The whole KC-X procurement was mired in controversy because there was no good replacement for the KC-135 before the program began. The KC-135R presented a set of rather oddly matched specifications, with OEW of just 56 tons compared to fuel load of 91 tons (MTOW 146 tons) and a very small ramp footprint. Modern narrowbodies top out at about 100 tons, so there is clearly not room there for something to match the Air Force's requirement for 90 tons of fuel.
The smallest widebodies in current production were the Boeing 767 and Airbus A330. The Boeing 767 has a minimum OEW of 80 tons and a maximum MTOW of 204 tons and the Airbus A330 has a minimum OEW of 109 tons and a maximum MTOW of 242 tons. The KC-X competition came down to the Boeing KC-46 (OEW 82 tons as in 767-200ER, MTOW 188 tons as in 767-300ER) and the Airbus KC-46 (OEW 125 tons, MTOW 233 tons). The 767 is both smaller and older than A330, so it makes sense that it would be cheaper to buy and operate.
I am thinking that the Air Force's target weight and size for the KC-X might have made it a viable target for an MoM size airliner instead of the smaller widebodies, if any such aircraft had remained in production into the 2010s.
In terms of weight and physical size, the Boeing 757 is the closest match with an OEW of 52 tons (757-200F), but MTOW of only 116 tons. Fuel load is about 35 tons, but that is with standard tanks. I don't even know if it would be possible to increase the 757's MTOW by 30 tons. Honestly, I think the OTL 757 design is just slightly too light for the MoM size slot, and I would look at something closer in size and weight to the Douglas DC-8-62/63, about 65 tons OEW and about 150 to 160 tons MTOW, which would coincidentally have the weight reserve for the Air Force's 90 tons fuel requirement.
For Airbus, the closest option would have been the A310, which was very comparable in size to the 767-200, with OEW at 79 tons and MTOW at about 160 tons. The A310 MRTT tanker conversions used by Germany and Canada can carry up to 78 tons of fuel, which is better than the 72 tons carried by the KC-767, which was the predecessor to the KC-46. Considering the historic sales performance of the 767-200, I don't think a 767-7 MAX or an A310neo in the weight range would perform particularly well. However, I think a new-build MRTT derived from the A300 or A310 would have been better matched against the KC-46.
The smallest widebodies in current production were the Boeing 767 and Airbus A330. The Boeing 767 has a minimum OEW of 80 tons and a maximum MTOW of 204 tons and the Airbus A330 has a minimum OEW of 109 tons and a maximum MTOW of 242 tons. The KC-X competition came down to the Boeing KC-46 (OEW 82 tons as in 767-200ER, MTOW 188 tons as in 767-300ER) and the Airbus KC-46 (OEW 125 tons, MTOW 233 tons). The 767 is both smaller and older than A330, so it makes sense that it would be cheaper to buy and operate.
I am thinking that the Air Force's target weight and size for the KC-X might have made it a viable target for an MoM size airliner instead of the smaller widebodies, if any such aircraft had remained in production into the 2010s.
In terms of weight and physical size, the Boeing 757 is the closest match with an OEW of 52 tons (757-200F), but MTOW of only 116 tons. Fuel load is about 35 tons, but that is with standard tanks. I don't even know if it would be possible to increase the 757's MTOW by 30 tons. Honestly, I think the OTL 757 design is just slightly too light for the MoM size slot, and I would look at something closer in size and weight to the Douglas DC-8-62/63, about 65 tons OEW and about 150 to 160 tons MTOW, which would coincidentally have the weight reserve for the Air Force's 90 tons fuel requirement.
For Airbus, the closest option would have been the A310, which was very comparable in size to the 767-200, with OEW at 79 tons and MTOW at about 160 tons. The A310 MRTT tanker conversions used by Germany and Canada can carry up to 78 tons of fuel, which is better than the 72 tons carried by the KC-767, which was the predecessor to the KC-46. Considering the historic sales performance of the 767-200, I don't think a 767-7 MAX or an A310neo in the weight range would perform particularly well. However, I think a new-build MRTT derived from the A300 or A310 would have been better matched against the KC-46.
If history had taken the course as in this TL: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...italy-italy-sides-with-wallies-in-ww2.495877/
McPherson
Banned
That engine looks a bit to large for the airframe, its ugly-cute though
Pin on War and History
That actually happens.
My objection is the air scoop interferes with pilot visibility. never mind longitudinal stability.
Reggiane Re.2000 Falco and Héja II (Hungarian version
A much better plane... Still fat engine.
That is the Re 2000 and this the Héja II with G-R engine
Pin on War and History
That actually happens.
My objection is the air scoop interferes with pilot visibility. never mind longitudinal stability.
Reggiane Re.2000 Falco and Héja II (Hungarian version
A much better plane... Still fat engine.
With Italy either in the allies or allied leaning neutral the RE2000 series would probably be given the Bristol Taurus,
Perhaps in its later versions but the ones ordered OTL was to use the Piaggio
McPherson
Banned
Thou shalt use a Pratt R-1830 and love it, for that engine does not over heat and catch fire like an Alpha Romeo or a Curtiss or burn itself out like a Taurus.
Just as a side note the GR 14K->N with a Farman supercharger was about the best French designed radials available and the Piaggio copies were not far behind in build quality.
The biggest problem was that the engine designers had trouble scaling up to a 1500 kWatt engine. Solving the heat problem was not simple.
The prototype Handley Page H.P. 47 adapted to have a retractable undercarriage. Later an enclosed cockpit, rear turret and a more powerful engine are added.In 1935 the RAF adopts the Handley Page H.P. 47 as a general purpose bomber/torpedo bomber for service outside of Europe. The aircraft is upgraded to have a retractable undercarriage and a 900hp Bristol Pegasus engine greatly improving on the prototypes performance.
Handley Page H.P.47 - Wikipedia
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Introduced in 1943, the sleek Heinkel-Hutter 215 provided extended range alongside exceptionally high altitude unachievable by the Allies at the time with a confirmed ceiling of over 17km. Its wing structure and overall configuration resembled the later U2 while a rumored version employing a Hungarian-designed Fono-21 jet engine near war's end reportedly had a ceiling in excess of 20km though this remains among those few CIOS files still classified.
Interesting plane, never heard of it. Im not sure if that wing profile is sufficent for such an insane ceiling. I found a picture of a windtunnel model of the plane, that shows much longer wings than the render and also a different tail assembly.Introduced in 1943, the sleek Heinkel-Hutter 215 provided extended range alongside exceptionally high altitude unachievable by the Allies at the time with a confirmed ceiling of over 17km. Its wing structure and overall configuration resembled the later U2 while a rumored version employing a Hungarian-designed Fono-21 jet engine near war's end reportedly had a ceiling in excess of 20km though this remains among those few CIOS files still classified.
*Albert Fono was designing jet engines in the 1920s and Hungary may have developed the first actual turboprop engine
en.m.wikipedia.org
Albert Fonó - Wikipedia
Inspirarion was from an actual late-war German aircraft that never got aloft but for which specifications list 16km as a ceiling (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Hütter_Hü_211)
A Boulton-Paul Defiant of the fifteenth grupo de lutadores (fighter group) of the frota aérea imperial is pictured over France in June of 1940 during the German invasion of the Republic. At the time the Defiant and biplane Gloster Gladiator formed the backbone of the Brazilian fighter corps. Six grupo of which had been assigned to Europe after Brazil declared war on Germany in March of 1940. These fighters, alongside a few grupo of bombers were delivered to the UK via the carrier francelho and after a hurried working up sent into action.
The Defiant had been accepted into Brazilian service ahead of its introduction in the RAF by almost a year, an order for three hundred of the type being placed in early 1938 after the flight of the prototype. The Defiant would also not be the only turret fighter to be operated by Brazil. With the marinha imperial flying the similar Blackburn Roc from its carriers, as well as the Gladiator. Due to the numbers needed Brazil acquired a license to manufacture not only the plane itself, but also the gun turret and Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. The first of these domestically built planes entering service in February of 1940.
In combat the aircraft were initially something of a disapointment. Having inferior performance to the single seater non turreted fighters they were pitted against, though their losses were never nearly as bad as later historians claim, with the grupo which flew them trading aircraft at roughly a 1:1 ratio with the enemy. As the only fighter in production in Brazil at the time and new aircraft unlikely the empire began modifications to the type such as the removal of the turret, addition of the guns to the wings, and deletion of the second mans position behind the pilot.
The so called Defiant II flew first in April of 1941 and would serve on in Brazilian hands until it was phased out in 1944 after production of license built Mustang and Thunderbolt fighters replaced them in the imperial arsenal. Including pre-production and the naval version some four thousand four hundred and eighty seven fighters of this type were built in Brazil.
Driftless
Donor
Not an alternate aircraft, but I couldn't think of a better place to list this Facebook link
Moraine-Saulnier 406 - not something you see everyday.....
*edit* I believe the second plane briefly seen is a Curtis Hawk 75
Moraine-Saulnier 406 - not something you see everyday.....
*edit* I believe the second plane briefly seen is a Curtis Hawk 75
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