Alternate Aesthetics and Culture Thread

[Mumby]

While I've eased off on my TL at the moment, I am turning my attention to some of the cosmetic details of the TL. Due to greater imbalances of power in Europe, no one style or fashion gains enough traction to dominate all others as in our world. A much more violent 19th century ensures that the great powers of Europe remain culturally divorced from one another, each taking their own path in terms of culture and architecture. By now in the 1950-60s, in Britain the in vogue architecture is a sort of fusion of Classical, Neo-Celtic, Indian and Art Deco.

Well anyway, what I thought was that its likely lots of people have ideas about architecture in their TLs. I have no skill in drawing buildings on the computer but I'm sure somebody on here does. It would be nice, and a bit more imaginative than the usual flags and maps to see some pictures of alternate buildings.

 

[Mumby]

Nothing? If you don't have any ideas about Alternate Architecture, can you give me some pointers over how to draw building concepts on the laptop?

 

[Color-Copycat]

In my TL, the Ford Motors Building of Manhattan is the tallest building in the world by 1927.

 

[fortyseven]

Gothic/Romanesque Jerusalem Cross cathedral

 

[Petike]

Nice idea for a thread.

Not too long ago, we had a thematically similar one.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

It's hard enough imagining what how various art movements are affected in any given ATL (without just defaulting to "neoclassicism becomes more popular"). Though on that subject, I'm intrigued by the idea of, say, futurist architecture getting a lot more projects completed, in a TL where said movement had a lot more influence (idea taken from this thread).

 

[Mumby]

It's hard enough imagining what how various art movements are affected in any given ATL (without just defaulting to "neoclassicism becomes more popular"). Though on that subject, I'm intrigued by the idea of, say, futurist architecture getting a lot more projects completed, in a TL where said movement had a lot more influence (idea taken from this thread).

I tried not to think of art movements. But it has always concerned me that we discriminate some TLs because they do not butterfly individuals and political movements. Architectural and fashion trends are at least as important.

 

[Beedok]

I tried not to think of art movements. But it has always concerned me that we discriminate some TLs because they do not butterfly individuals and political movements. Architectural and fashion trends are at least as important.

You can have similar trends though. For instance the invention of photography my still lead to an overall similar response from painters even if the POD was centuries earlier.

 

[Petike]

In my long TL, I have an architectural style analogous to Barocque, but with several important stylistic differences. It's called Ornato. Furthermore, the historians of my TL call the Gothic architectural style Cistercic (due to the big involvement of the Cistercian order in many of the early Gothic projects).

 

[Mumby]

Generally in a Looser Union due to an earlier end to explicitly racialist theories, most of the colonial empires have absorbed cultural and aesthetic aspects of colonised peoples. France has adopted aspects of Classical archiecture and combined them with Muslim and West African additions. Britain has an eclectic combination of Indian, Arab and Mayan ideas combined with Art Deco inclinations. While Germania has turned all Gothic in extremis.

 

[Gorm the Old]

Well anyway, what I thought was that its likely lots of people have ideas about architecture in their TLs. I have no skill in drawing buildings on the computer but I'm sure somebody on here does. It would be nice, and a bit more imaginative than the usual flags and maps to see some pictures of alternate buildings.

Not a bad idea at all. After all, alternate buildings are the setting for many of the major happenings in timelines! People usually also love the various concepts of things that were never meant to be (see Nazi Germany's Concept Art Division of the SS ) or the various mega projects. That tower which was planned to be added to Parliament, which would have dwarfed the existing one, is another interesting building that never was. Surely the ideas people come up with in their timelines could be just as interesting.

Generally in a Looser Union due to an earlier end to explicitly racialist theories, most of the colonial empires have absorbed cultural and aesthetic aspects of colonised peoples. France has adopted aspects of Classical archiecture and combined them with Muslim and West African additions.

Classical and golden age Muslim architecture could fit together rather well I think. What time period is a Looser Union? Haven't read it, but from this alone I assume it's middle/late 19th century at this point? If that's right, this basically sounds like my ideal architecture (in layout/function, if not the superficial style)

Britain has an eclectic combination of Indian, Arab and Mayan ideas combined with Art Deco inclinations.

Very hard to imagine what this would look like, but it would certainly be interesting!

While Germania has turned all Gothic in extremis.

Of course they did.

To lay my cards on the table, I am an architect, so I should really be able to create some images of alternate buildings, and I have actually dabbled a bit in it. Some styles require much more effort than others though! Nazi architecture for example is really pretty simple, while gothic churches are a nightmare.

I'll be happy to answer questions when I have the time in regards to architecture, though I obviously can't teach the entire craft. Would be kind of a sorry education if I could.

Here's at least a program that you could use for sketching out your ideas (hence the name). Pretty simple to use, and it is actually used to some degree by professionals. I haven't personally used it for some time, but I doubt you would gain much from being thrown into the deep end.

http://sketchup.google.com/download/

Actually, I wouldn't necessarily mind perhaps drawing up images for the concepts you're presenting, as long as you gave me a slightly more detailed brief.* Would depend on the concept/workload of course, but it wouldn't hurt to throw them out there.

*Function, location, history behind the project and so on.

 

[Mumby]

Classical and golden age Muslim architecture could fit together rather well I think. What time period is a Looser Union? Haven't read it, but from this alone I assume it's middle/late 19th century at this point? If that's right, this basically sounds like my ideal architecture (in layout/function, if not the superficial style)

Well, that architecture emerged in the middle of the 19th century and reached its height from the 1890s to the 1920s. I'm thinking about displacing this architecture with something more Art Deco from the 30s to 60s.

Very hard to imagine what this would look like, but it would certainly be interesting!

Definitely leaning toward Indian more than Mayan. I just don't quite know how to combine Indian and Art Deco.

To lay my cards on the table, I am an architect, so I should really be able to create some images of alternate buildings, and I have actually dabbled a bit in it. Some styles require much more effort than others though! Nazi architecture for example is really pretty simple, while gothic churches are a nightmare.

I'll be happy to answer questions when I have the time in regards to architecture, though I obviously can't teach the entire craft. Would be kind of a sorry education if I could.

Here's at least a program that you could use for sketching out your ideas (hence the name). Pretty simple to use, and it is actually used to some degree by professionals. I haven't personally used it for some time, but I doubt you would gain much from being thrown into the deep end.

http://sketchup.google.com/download/

Actually, I wouldn't necessarily mind perhaps drawing up images for the concepts you're presenting, as long as you gave me a slightly more detailed brief.* Would depend on the concept/workload of course, but it wouldn't hurt to throw them out there.

*Function, location, history behind the project and so on.

Thats very interesting and kind of you. Really the only one I can think of is the British Houses of Parliament, rebuilt before the Revolution after a fire broke out. Its built to house almost 900 MPs, and about 1200 Lords. I didn't think very much about where it is. But its probably in the same place. Its built in a combination of the prevalent architectural styles across the Empire (Indian, Neo-Mayan, Arab, Bristol Byzantine).

 

[Gorm the Old]

Well, that architecture emerged in the middle of the 19th century and reached its height from the 1890s to the 1920s. I'm thinking about displacing this architecture with something more Art Deco from the 30s to 60s.

About what I figured for the first part. Architecture is after all to a large degree defined by the politics and the technologies of the era, another reason why it can add an extra dimension to a time line.

Definitely leaning toward Indian more than Mayan. I just don't quite know how to combine Indian and Art Deco.

Yeah, it would be easier to imagine if the British part was closer to OTL, as we already have examples of such architecture in India.

Thats very interesting and kind of you. Really the only one I can think of is the British Houses of Parliament, rebuilt before the Revolution after a fire broke out. Its built to house almost 900 MPs, and about 1200 Lords. I didn't think very much about where it is. But its probably in the same place. Its built in a combination of the prevalent architectural styles across the Empire (Indian, Neo-Mayan, Arab, Bristol Byzantine).

Do you have a link to the timeline? I don't really have a grasp of it, and the technological evolution in the period moves so fast that a decade can mean a lot, even in a similar style. The politics of the period can mean a lot to, in regards to what the rulers see as the ideal. Just compare Nazi architecture to the architecture of Fascism in Italy, for an example of a stark contrast between two ideologies that people have a habit of putting in the same boat. Even if Mussolini wanted to revive the Roman Empire, he was certainly going to do it with modernity as the ideal, while Hitler was all about recreating a lost age.

 

[Mumby]

Do you have a link to the timeline? I don't really have a grasp of it, and the technological evolution in the period moves so fast that a decade can mean a lot, even in a similar style. The politics of the period can mean a lot to, in regards to what the rulers see as the ideal. Just compare Nazi architecture to the architecture of Fascism in Italy, for an example of a stark contrast between two ideologies that people have a habit of putting in the same boat. Even if Mussolini wanted to revive the Roman Empire, he was certainly going to do it with modernity as the ideal, while Hitler was all about recreating a lost age.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=217116

There you go. Its a good point you make about the difference between Fascist and Nazi architecture. The Art Deco elements of British architecture only emerge after the Second Great War in the 1890s and the British Revolution at the start of the 20th century.

 

[Gorm the Old]

Not done yet, just wanted to say that I haven't forgotten about this. Who could have known that Westminster would be as complicated as it is? I'm nearly done drawing the Thames facade*, though the plan is taking longer than I though it would. At least there are some really great maps of the OTL one, which are a big help when it comes to sizes and functions of the rooms.

*Which might be the only one I'm going to make, old-school buildings like that are pretty easy to figure out from just a plan and a single facade.

In regards to this thread, perhaps a general "Alternate Aesthetics and Culture Discussion Thread" might be more successful? Basically consolidating various subjects that are not directly related to what people usually deal with in timelines, such as architecture, fashion, music, ideologies and the like? Where people could both post images they've made, like in the Map Thread, but also ask for pointers and discuss how culture might be influenced by what's happening in their timeline. It's a subject that I feel deserves more attention in timelines, since it helps make the history more real.

 

[Mumby]

Not done yet, just wanted to say that I haven't forgotten about this. Who could have known that Westminster would be as complicated as it is? I'm nearly done drawing the Thames facade*, though the plan is taking longer than I though it would. At least there are some really great maps of the OTL one, which are a big help when it comes to sizes and functions of the rooms.

*Which might be the only one I'm going to make, old-school buildings like that are pretty easy to figure out from just a plan and a single facade.

In regards to this thread, perhaps a general "Alternate Aesthetics and Culture Discussion Thread" might be more successful? Basically consolidating various subjects that are not directly related to what people usually deal with in timelines, such as architecture, fashion, music, ideologies and the like? Where people could both post images they've made, like in the Map Thread, but also ask for pointers and discuss how culture might be influenced by what's happening in their timeline. It's a subject that I feel deserves more attention in timelines, since it helps make the history more real.

Thats a good idea. Especially when you consider B Munro's ASB scenarios. He usually devotes large sections addressing cultural and aesthetic differences.

And don't get hung up about getting the thing done quickly. These things take time. And the longer you take usually the better it turns out. So take as long as you need.

 

[The Professor]

In regards to this thread, perhaps a general "Alternate Aesthetics and Culture Discussion Thread" might be more successful? Basically consolidating various subjects that are not directly related to what people usually deal with in timelines, such as architecture, fashion, music, ideologies and the like? Where people could both post images they've made, like in the Map Thread, but also ask for pointers and discuss how culture might be influenced by what's happening in their timeline. It's a subject that I feel deserves more attention in timelines, since it helps make the history more real.

That's a good idea - PM a Mod to change the name.

For instance some people are not aware that ties originate with the cravats worn by Croat (hence the name) mercenaries during the Napoleonic Wars. These became popular with soldiers and their officers who on retiring started creating more formal versions that developed into the school and businessman ties.

It's worth checking out the wikipedia changes which show fashion through the centuries from about 1400 odd.

 

[rvbomally]

 

[The Piano]

While I've eased off on my TL at the moment, I am turning my attention to some of the cosmetic details of the TL. Due to greater imbalances of power in Europe, no one style or fashion gains enough traction to dominate all others as in our world. A much more violent 19th century ensures that the great powers of Europe remain culturally divorced from one another, each taking their own path in terms of culture and architecture. By now in the 1950-60s, in Britain the in vogue architecture is a sort of fusion of Classical, Neo-Celtic, Indian and Art Deco.

You might be interested in (real) 19th century art. Orientalism was a big thing in 19th century Britain, like the Royal Pavillion in Brighton. You also have a few Neo-Celtic elements, in decoration at least.

This thread is really interesting and I hope it gets picked up. I'm really interesting in how aesthetics and culture as a whole would have evolved in different timelines, including fashion.

 

[The Uchronian]

Hi Mumby. I'd like to help, but I have some advice for you first.

If you're going to ask for some help with your specific TL, could you please, please try not to use such generic titles, especially far-reaching ones such as this? It just confuses people a bit, that's all.