Allied victory if Russia falls in WW 2

OK, English is not my mother language, so it would be my fault I didn't explain it more deeply.
I meant that IN THE PLANS OF THE NAZIS Extermination by labor would have been the method to kill the inhabitants of the former USSR (after Backe's "Hungerplan"). At least we are discussing about a victory of the 3rd Reich in the East (again, see title). So I assumed that everyone gets this hint to the GPO. I'd mentioned especially "in this scenario" and not OTL.

But never, NEVER did I say "I suggest that the slavs should be killed by..." or "In my opinion the slavs should be exterminated by..." or anything else in the direction that I appreciate Massmurder or crimes against humanity.

So stop laying words in my Mouth!
 
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McPherson

Banned
I accept that English is not your first language. But... it still follows from the discourse as it develops with your thesis being examined; that colonial imperialist racist bigoted
idiots (and the Nazis were this, in addition to the rest of their vile evil-tude.) would not understand why such slave labor was counter-productive to efficient war making because they could not accept that non-Nazi ideology driven human beings (read everyone else.) are clever resourceful and dangerous, and when they have nothing to lose, will surprise you with just how clever, smart and resourceful they can be in evading or killing their so-called (scoff) "masters".

if nothing else, the numerous examples I've given you should have illustrated this factor.

P.S. How people read your words is how you are read. You do not get a choice in that situation. If they think you said something and can read it back to you and SHOW YOU that it is what you wrote, then you are stuck with it. I know from personal experience, that I thought I wrote one thing and it came out another way, and I have since learned to proof for meaning twice before I write something which mixes opinion and fact. There are no excuses allowed.
 
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if nothing else, the numerous examples I've given you should have illustrated this factor.

Yeah so what? The Nazis weren't interested in your arguments. They did it their (hoorible, disgusting) way. And we have documents that prove that after a victory in the east they will scale up this method in disgusting high areas. They doesn't matter if this method is efficient or they get a high tech flying bomb out of this. Their aim was to kill the majority of the population in the east and get as a "good" side effect a functional infrastructure, new factories and resources. It's not important to them if this is efficient. It's efficient for their main goal.

And that was the question. Can the Nazis use Russians to get more resources? Yes, they can, and they will IN THIS SCENARIO. Because they planned it.

But never mind, I understand that you don't know the original question anymore. You'd been busy to shift goalposts and lay words in mouths they didn't say, and that in a very arrogant manner. That's the annoying thing with you
See you on Ignore
 
What are the chances of an allied victory if the USSR falls to nazi Germany? How can they achieve it and hot long it will realistically take

I would imagine it would take at least another year or two. It does depend on when the USSR falls though.

Most likely, the USSR would break in 1942. The Germans seem to have come very, very close to shattering organized resistance in that year. It doesn't mean the end of fighting on the Eastern Front however. The Japanese broke the Nationalist Chinese in 1944 in the same way. Yet, Chiang still lived, there was still a Nationalist Chinese government, it still attempted to resist. Similarly, the Germans can defeat the USSR, that doesn't mean they've won in the East though. It just means they've not lost in the East. Something calling itself the Soviet government would likely continue to exist, though it may have lost the faith of its own people and been reduced to a nuisance. Obviously, implications for the post-war period are interesting.

However, German goals are so out of sync with their material circumstances that it's hard to see this helping them much at all. With the intense drain of the Great Patriotic War replaced by the quicksand of the slow effort to exterminate all the sub-human Slavs and Jews, and the struggle of those people to resist, there are more resources to defend Western Europe. That could potentially slow the Anglo-American bombing campaign significantly, but the Germans don't have the time or the right way of thinking to turn the conquered territories into a net resource contributor. The US and UK have atom bombs and jet aircraft in the pipeline, and the Germans don't have the tungsten they need to produce the sort of interceptor aircraft they need to put together an even half-way credible defense.

Eventually, the WAllies can blow a hole in Germany's defenses on the French coast with nuclear weapons and pour most of a planet's worth of people and industrial power into the gap.

In OTL, WW2 was absolutely won mainly by the efforts of the Soviet people, but had the Soviets been taken out, as much as this multiplies the misery all sides will experience many-fold, when the war ended in OTL the United States in OTL hadn't even begun to fight and they were absolutely willing to do what it took to win. Also, in OTL US atom bomb manufacture scaled up very quickly.

As to your poll, my answer is "none of the above".

The US using lots of atom bombs (dozens probably) likely doesn't make much of a difference in death tolls. Atom bombs just aren't powerful enough to kill millions and the US won't wait until they have hundreds and attempt to exterminate Germany Cold War style. No, they'll use it to replace conventional explosives, allowing single bombers to do the work whole bomber fleets had to do before (making things extremely difficult for German air defenses since each single plane has to be treated like a city destroyer). They'll use them to depopulate stretches of coast of defenders so they can land troops and then they'll roll over the Germans with conventional armies. Any concentration of troops large enough to warrant it can also get a dose of instant sunshine. Or rather, their logistics and organization structures will. A-bombs can't exactly wipe armies off the map. So casualties aren't going to be much worse than OTL.

Where things will be worse is occupied Russia. Likely Europe's Jews are pretty well finished off (and the Nazis are extremely surprised when this does not result in the war just ending as their anti-Semitic beliefs said should happen) and they make good progress in killing even more Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusian and anyone else that looks at them funny. There, tens of millions of people do die. But in Western Europe, things would probably only be a little worse than OTL, not alot worse like it will be for the poor people of the Soviet territories.

fasquardon
 
Below is what I said in the other thread about what would happen if Germany defeated the USSR. Since they’re similar threads I figured I’d post here as well to continue the discussion.

With tens of millions of slave laborers available (at its peak before D-Day there were close to 300,000 laborers working on coastal fortifications) and all the resources freed up or gained by the USSR getting knocked out of the war (plus captured equipment and reparations the USSR would likely send the Reich as a part of their “peace” treaty) how would the Atlantic Wall’s fortifications look in comparison to OTL?

I’ve seen speculation elsewhere on this topic that with no USSR to bleed Germany white and the WAllies unable to land on the continent for several years the coastal fortifications would be so formidable that nuclear weapons in a tactical role would be required to breach it (further increasing the chances of the WAllies making peace with Germany).

Regardless any serious Allied attempt to land in France would be larger than Operation Olympic in terms of ships, troops and casualties.
 
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Most of evidence is again not presented in contest=[> i.e. cherry picked and inaccurate.

Olympic was scheduled for November 1945. Troops from Europe were intended as part of it and were arriving starting in August, so exactly why do I consider your statement;

You have, again, shifted the goalposts. As we've already established, OLYMPIC had 14 divisions landing. Whether or not there are millions of follow up troops matters not because if they're not there, they're not there. Doesn't matter if they're in Europe, the Philippines, etc.

…. merely your opinion that flies in the face of the proven history that the Japanese (like the Germans) were never able to force an American landing to re-embark or even "destroy" the landing forces. This is the thing about these kinds of arguments so offered. They are not grounded in actual historical truths. These are the forms of evidence that actually are the "goal posts". Even the Japanese expected the landings to succeed as their own planning shows. What they hoped was for a negotiation based on the blood bath they expected, since they thought they would out-die and outlast the Americans and even at that, it was their hope that the Americans would talk to them about a CONDITIONAL surrender in which the Imperial Japanese government would accept a defeat. Do you understand? They, the Japanese, expected to LOSE..

The Americans never landed successfully on the Japanese Home Islands, so we can assume they wouldn't be able to disembark or even destroy the defending force.

Now that we've establish how silly it is to attempt to use circular reasoning to make your point, why not actually respond to what's been outlined instead of claiming it's wrong and relying on repeating it enough to hope it sticks?

Olympic was scheduleed for November 1945. The first European veterans were arriving in the Philippines August for training and re-equipment.

And we've already established that means nothing. Further in this regard, with the war in Europe raging in 1945, how are those veterans going to be coming to Japan?

JCS estimates in August 1945 for DOWNFALL were ~100,000 killed and 400,000 wounded. (already sourced and provided.) Those were the last OFFICIAL estimates because the war ended. The 3.5-5 million Japanese were the estimates from the war-crimes the Americans were contemplating to commit in direct combat; not starvation as claimed. What do you not understand about massed chemical warfare attacks and saturation bombing?

And we've already established JCS was wrong in this regard, thinking there was only ~300,000 Japanese on Kyushu. Using the JCS's own formula, which I've provided via Bob, the U.S. would've sufferred three million casualties. Ask the Marines of Iwo and Okinawa how well saturation bombing worked on the Japanese there, or the GIs at D-Day with regards to the Atlantic Wall for that matter? Bob has also repeatedly pointed out to you the IJA had stockpiled Anti-Chemical Warfare equipment as well.

Again I suggest you study the Pacific War in 1945 and look at the actual planning documents. For example, the Honshu option was purely for runways. While well defended against what the Russians could do, the Americans could actually walk through the defense there (about 1 corps and 1 air division equivalent) even from the Aleutians axis of threat, as contingency planned. This was so, because the Japanese did not expect it to be attempted at all due to weather and distance factors. Funny thing is that Iwo presented the same kind of weather (typhoon) and distance (Beyond land based fighter range) problems and the Japanese did expect it and they tried to stop it. Same for Okinawa and how did those evolutions actually turn out for them? NTG. .

Finally Bernstein is wrong on so many things since it is HE who does not understand the process. Battle planning communications, and that was what those documents were at that stage, was routinely chopped to every senior operation commander: land, sea, and air for a situation like this so each could see what the others thought. For Downfall, this was MacArthur (land), Nimitz (sea) and Arnold (significantly for air.) BTW, those communications DID produce the 2nd week in August 1945 decisions to cancel DOWNFALL, though Bernstein forgets another significant event... that was even more important than these messages...

As I said before, not a shred of evidence exists to back up what you're saying. The U.S. was not about to cancel OLYMPIC and certainly was not about to switch to CORONET randomly.

That is why the case you presented is "not proven."

Again, cool, doesn't prove anything though.
 
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McPherson

Banned
You have, again, shifted the goalposts. As we've already established, OLYMPIC had 14 divisions landing. Whether or not there are millions of follow up troops matters not because if they're not there, they're not there. Doesn't matter if they're in Europe, the Philippines, etc.



The Americans never landed successfully on the Japanese Home Islands, so we can assume they wouldn't be able to disembark or even destroy the defending force.

Now that we've establish how silly it is to attempt to use circular reasoning to make your point, why not actually respond to what's been outlined instead of claiming it's wrong and relying on repeating it enough to hope it sticks?



And we've already established that means nothing. Further in this regard, with the war in Europe raging in 1945, how are those veterans going to be coming to Japan?



And we've already established JCS was wrong in this regard, thinking there was only ~300,000 Japanese on Kyushu. Using the JCS's own formula, which I've provided via Bob, the U.S. would've sufferred three million casualties. Ask the Marines of Iwo and Okinawa how well saturation bombing worked on the Japanese there, or the GIs at D-Day with regards to the Atlantic Wall for that matter? Bob has also repeatedly pointed out to you the IJA had stockpiled Anti-Chemical Warfare equipment as well.



As I said before, not a shred of evidence exists to back up what you're saying. The U.S. was not about to cancel OLYMPIC and certainly was not about to switch to CORONET randomly.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-bomber-drops-atomic-bomb-on-hiroshima

Again, cool, doesn't prove anything though.

Actually to keep it short and sweet. (^^^) (since THEY DID LAND, after September 15, 1945), all you did was reinforce my case. ENDIT.
 
Actually to keep it short and sweet. (^^^) (since THEY DID LAND, after September 15, 1945), all you did was reinforce my case. ENDIT.

A peace time administrative landing, where the defending force had been ordered to allow them to do so, reinforces your point that a contested landing would be successful? I think it should be clear how unrealistic that is.....
 
.....


The Americans never landed successfully on the Japanese Home Islands, so we can assume they wouldn't be able to disembark or even destroy the defending force.
...

How does that follow, they didn't try in OTL because they didn't need to, so they couldn't possibly do it ATL if they did need to?

Not forgetting that the Americans hadn't successfully landed in North Africa until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Southern Europe, until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Western Europe until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Okinawa until they did

so no we can't make that assumption
 
How does that follow, they didn't try in OTL because they didn't need to, so they couldn't possibly do it ATL if they did need to?

Not forgetting that the Americans hadn't successfully landed in North Africa until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Southern Europe, until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Western Europe until they did

They hadn't successfully landed in Okinawa until they did

so no we can't make that assumption

....which was the point and why the immediate next sentence said we shouldn’t use circular logic lol; I was being sarcastic in saying that.
 
....which was the point and why the immediate next sentence said we shouldn’t use circular logic lol; I was being sarcastic in saying that.

Sorry that doesn't work because you posted that in response to:

…. merely your opinion that flies in the face of the proven history that the Japanese (like the Germans) were never able to force an American landing to re-embark or even "destroy" the landing forces. This is the thing about these kinds of arguments so offered. They are not grounded in actual historical truths. These are the forms of evidence that actually are the "goal posts". Even the Japanese expected the landings to succeed as their own planning shows. What they hoped was for a negotiation based on the blood bath they expected, since they thought they would out-die and outlast the Americans and even at that, it was their hope that the Americans would talk to them about a CONDITIONAL surrender in which the Imperial Japanese government would accept a defeat. Do you understand? They, the Japanese, expected to LOSE..

And you have been arguing precisely what you now claim to be sarcasm and circular logic.
 
Sorry that doesn't work because you posted that in response to:

…. merely your opinion that flies in the face of the proven history that the Japanese (like the Germans) were never able to force an American landing to re-embark or even "destroy" the landing forces. This is the thing about these kinds of arguments so offered. They are not grounded in actual historical truths. These are the forms of evidence that actually are the "goal posts". Even the Japanese expected the landings to succeed as their own planning shows. What they hoped was for a negotiation based on the blood bath they expected, since they thought they would out-die and outlast the Americans and even at that, it was their hope that the Americans would talk to them about a CONDITIONAL surrender in which the Imperial Japanese government would accept a defeat. Do you understand? They, the Japanese, expected to LOSE..

And you have been arguing precisely what you now claim to be sarcasm and circular logic.

Not sure how one comes to such a conclusion:
The Americans never landed successfully on the Japanese Home Islands, so we can assume they wouldn't be able to disembark or even destroy the defending force.

Now that we've establish how silly it is to attempt to use circular reasoning to make your point, why not actually respond to what's been outlined instead of claiming it's wrong and relying on repeating it enough to hope it sticks?

Pretty clear to everyone I was making a joke, particularly given I was reponding to this bit in particular: "merely your opinion that flies in the face of the proven history that the Japanese (like the Germans) were never able to force an American landing to re-embark or even "destroy" the landing forces."

i.e. because it didn't happen, it couldn't happen, which ignores the differing strategic situations inherant. Hence, why I asked for a response on the points made, rather than just making a circular argument. Not sure why you're trying to make a gotcha out of this when it's clear to pretty much obvious what I was doing. If you disagree with the analysis itself, sure, make your points and I'll respond to them; verbal wordplay really accomplishes nothing here.
 
Not sure how one comes to such a conclusion:


Pretty clear to everyone I was making a joke, particularly given I was reponding to this bit in particular: "merely your opinion that flies in the face of the proven history that the Japanese (like the Germans) were never able to force an American landing to re-embark or even "destroy" the landing forces."

i.e. because it didn't happen, it couldn't happen, which ignores the differing strategic situations inherant. Hence, why I asked for a response on the points made, rather than just making a circular argument. Not sure why you're trying to make a gotcha out of this when it's clear to pretty much obvious what I was doing. If you disagree with the analysis itself, sure, make your points and I'll respond to them; verbal wordplay really accomplishes nothing here.

Only you've been arguing that the Japanese would push the Americans back into teh sea, and not really supporting you case beyond claiming it was supported. The thing is that one line in bold doesn't mean we ignore all the rest of your posts (and the responses to them).
 
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Only you've been arguing that the Japanese would push the Americans back into teh sea, and not really supporting you case beyond claiming it was supported. The thing is that one lone on bold doesn't mean we ignore all the rest of your posts.

...You haven't read this thread at all, it seems:

Okay, so let me again preface this by saying my statement is based on the U.S. and Japan being in the same position as they were in August of 1945. Obviously I get that, realistically, there will be differences compared to OTL given the changed nature of the war, but that opens up so many possibilities as to make overall speculation impossible. Honestly, too, this is being generous to the United States by assuming the Pacific War is in the same state as OTL by August of 1945, given how much tougher the Germans will be; the only way I can see the war having gone worse for the Japanese is if the U.S. elects to take a Japan First strategy given the situation in Europe, with all other circumstances being generally favorable to Japan. Case in point, if we're sending the B-29s to Europe, they aren't there to be bombing Japan, etc. With that stated, @BobTheBarbarian did the research on this and stated the case far more eloquently than I ever could in this thread. I'll provide a tl;dr verision, however.

The situation of mid to late-1945 needs to be viewed through the prism of the intelligence both sides were working on. In this regard, the Japanese were completely dominant over the United States, having correctly figured out the timing, sequence and even invasion points the Americans were going to use as part of Operation DOWNFALL in Kyushu. The Japanese had deduced the entire planning of DOWNFALL according to D.M. Giangreco's Hell To Pay, with their only error being, if it could be even called that, their assumption the Allies were going to deploy more forces than they actually were planning for. They expected the United States and its allies to commit almost 10,000 plans when in reality it would've been 5,000 or less, while they also estimated they (Allies) would land between 15 to 40 divisions; in reality, the Allies were planning for 14. The Japanese were preparing to meet and defeat a much larger force than the Allies could actually bring to the table.

On the flip side, the U.S. was completely off. Case in point was MacArthur's G-2 estimating that, by X-Day on November 1 in 1945, the Japanese in all of Kyushu would have 300,000 men and 200 tanks. In actuality, the 57th Army based in southeast Kyushu alone had that amount of strength. When the 700,000 Marines and U.S. Army soldiers of the 6th Army landed in that November, they would've been facing in total 900,000 Japanese soldiers dug in with permanent emplacements just like at Iwo and Okinawa. Japanese planning as part of KETSU-GO also envisioned that, immediately following the American invasion, an addition 90,000 troops in four divisions were to be transported across the narrow waterway of the Shimonoseki Strait. IGHQ projections had the entire force outfitted and ready by October of 1945, with the logistical underpinning of the force being six months worth of supplies that had been stockpiled, ready for the decisive battle. Outside of the immediate invasion beaches, no firepower advantage would've existed for the Americans; Kyushu is extremely mountainous and thus the ranges involved would've produced a situation the U.S. found like that in Italy or Korea, with close in fighting at very short ranges. In essence the U.S. would've found itself launching frontal assaults against an enemy that already outnumbered it. By now I've belabored the point that by 1945 the Japanese had figured out the tactics and strategy needed to inflict 1:1 losses on their enemies, but the point needs to be re-stated here because at 990,000 to 600,000 the basic math is clear how this would go.

Finally, and most importantly, was the air campaign. IGHQ had been stockpiling aviation for months in preparation for the invasion, with total inventory being 1,156,000 barrels by July of 1942. Much the same had been done for pilots, with IJA having 2,000 pilots with at least 70 hours of flying time while the IJN had 4,200 on hand who were considered sufficiently trained for night or low light missions; given the type of challenges those conditions presented, that means they were well trained. Overall, when the Japanese formulated KETSU-GO starting in July of 1945, the plan called for 9,000 aircraft to be brought to bare against the invasion fleet. Contemporary to this, the Japanese inventory already contained 8,500 ready planes and IGHQ expected another 2,000 by the fall. When the Allies conducted a census in August following the surrender they found 12,684 aircraft of all types in Japan, suggesting that IGHQ's estimates were spot on for 10,500 aircraft by November. As for planned uses, of the 9,000 to be used in KETSU-GO, kamikazes were to comprise 6,225 of the total.

That last bit is perhaps the most important, as experience at Okinawa had shown that a 6:1 ratio existed in the expenditure of kamikazes to achieve a successful ship sinking. Japanese planning held, and U.S. estimates agree with them, that they believed in the initial 10 days of the invasion they could sink at least 500 transports out of the expected 1,000 the U.S. was bringing for the attack. This would've amount to the loss of about five divisions and much of the logistical network, crippling the invasion before it even stormed the beaches. There is every reason to believe this would've worked, as the Japanese would've enjoyed several advantages they didn't have at Okinawa, such as:
  1. The mountainous terrain meant that Japanese attacking aircraft would've been shielded from radar detection almost until they were right up on the fleet. At Okinawa, the U.S. had been able to deploy destroyers as pickets dozens of miles out but that wouldn't have possible here because the invasion fleet obviously had to be closely anchored off Japan.
  2. The "Big Blue Blanket", which was an Anti-Kamikaze tactic devised by the U.S. during Okinawa, involved masses of fighters kept aloft and being fed data by the picket ships. However, this would've been impossible to counter the Japanese here, as the U.S. was only bringing 5,000 total aircraft from the Far Eastern Air Force in the Ryukyus and the carriers of the 3rd and 5th Fleets. The problem, as outlined by Giangreco, was that U.S. planning called for TF-58 with its 1,900 plans to be 600 miles to the North attacking targets in Honshu instead of supporting the 7th Fleet. This left just two carrier groups to provide a combat air patrol for the fleet, which means that American fighters would've been outnumbered by the Japanese by about a staggering 10 to 1. In other words, even if every American fighter pilot became an ace during those first 10 days, thousands of Japanese aircraft would've still broken through.
  3. The Japanese had 60 airfields on Okinawa and the aforementioned fact of short distances to target meant that mechanical issues, a problem that plagued kamikaze operations during Okinawa given the hundreds of miles distance from Japan to the island, would not have been anywhere near as prevalent.

If eight paragraphs explaining my argument isn't enough, then quite frankly agree to disagree.
 
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