AHQ : Wind power options for North America?

I recognize it's periodic, so I'll leave off how that's solved.

I'm more interested in how realistic one option in particular is: namely, wind farms.

Especially in the Great Lakes, in Hudson Bay, off Labrador and the Aleutians, in Lake Winnipeg, and in Great Slave and Great Bear Lakes.

I'm assuming half the surface area of the lakes is open for wind farms, and three-quarters of Hudson Bay is. (I'm not even going to guess what the coast resources might look like...) I'm also assuming power output of 4MW/km^2.

Great Lakes: area 244,106 km^2. Output: 488212MW (or 4279666392000kW-h/yr)
Lake Winnipeg: area 24,514 km^2. Output: 49028MW (107444862000kW-h/yr)
Hudson Bay: area 1,230,000 km^2. Output: 3690000MW (32346540000000kW-h/yr
Great Slave Lake: area 27,200km^2. Output: 54400MW (476870400000kW-h/yr)
Great Bear Lake: area 31,153km^2. Output: 62306MW (546174396000kW-h/yr)

Am I completely nuts? Or are we missing a gigantic opportunity?

For comparison, the U.S. in 2015 used 3,911,000,000,000 kW-hr.
 
Yes and no. The energy's there if we want it but uh battery tech not being good enough to use it for base load is why it's not yet a serious thing.
 
battery tech not being good enough to use it for base load
Given.

Are these locations nutty?

Are my estimates completely wrong?

Think about it: If you can run a large portion of Ontario, Quebec, Michigan, the industrial heartland, just from the Great Lakes, even if it's only some of the time, the power they'd use can go elsewhere.

No?
 
Wind is a great opportunity that is underutilised in USA.

Theres a debate about how much energy you want from wind given the lack of control of whether its on or off.

I live in a country that gets 36% of electricity from wind. Due to very poor wind last week our power grid company issued a warning as they couldn't ramp up any other power. We have too much wind.

That said it makes sense for the majority of countries to have some wind in its energy mix. At the moment USA produces roughly 9% of electricity from wind. I feel that it could significantly increase this (to 15-20% of electricity production) without running into grid level problems.

There are a lot of good locations for wind farms both "on shore" and "off shore" in USA.
 
Well, ice is a problem. Less, of course on Ontario and Erie. Those two are shallower, as well avoiding the complexities of floating wind turbines.

In fact, the first such project just won their case in the Ohio Supreme court, and can now go ahead.
 
In fact many states in the United States get 15-20% or more of their power from wind, for example Iowa or Texas. For the Great Lakes specifically the problem is probably that the United States has a quite underdeveloped offshore wind industry, compared to its relatively developed onshore industry. That appears to be changing, but in the short term more wind for the Midwest probably means more turbines on land, not on the lakes. The other bodies of water you mention are far away from people, so that’s probably an even bigger factor in their non-development (and some of them would pose serious challenges with annual freezes/thaws)
 
Gravitational storage: use excess power to haul weights uphill, let them descend later to generate power. An array of steel towers with concrete masses moving up and down like elevator counterweights should conceivably be able to store hundreds of megawatt hours.
 
Gravitational storage: use excess power to haul weights uphill, let them descend later to generate power. An array of steel towers with concrete masses moving up and down like elevator counterweights should conceivably be able to store hundreds of megawatt hours.
The better idea is to use pumped storage hydroelectricity which is two reservoirs of water at different elevations where some is let out into a lower one to generate hydroelectric power in power deficit and pump some up from the lower into the higher in excess power.

Also massive desert states like New Mexico and Nevada, why not plaster them in solar power?
 
The better idea is to use pumped storage hydroelectricity which is two reservoirs of water at different elevations where some is let out into a lower one to generate hydroelectric power in power deficit and pump some up from the lower into the higher in excess power.

Also massive desert states like New Mexico and Nevada, why not plaster them in solar power?
The desert states lack suitable hydroelectric sites tho.
 
A lot of the history of wind energy in the US (and Canada, and many other countries) consists of grid management actively not wanting wind on the grid, because it requires them to put more work into managing the system if different power stations have drastically different operational requirements- coal and gas are great: they turn on and off when you tell them and are entirely predictable. Nuclear's less desirable- turning it off is a whole process, and so you only want to use it as a low base load. But renewables are the worst: they don't turn on when you tell them to (if the wind's not blowing) and they don't want to turn off when you tell them to (since if they turn off at peak operational efficiency, they have no guarantee that those conditions will be available next time they're called up.)

Oddly enough, Texas was historically the most wind-friendly state, purely because they refused to play ball with the national grid, which disliked wind because all grids dislike wind, and was big enough to ensure its whims were catered to. The Texas Interconnection, by contrast, answered more immediately to state legislators, and therefore had more difficulty rejecting local wind projects.
 
Also massive desert states like New Mexico and Nevada, why not plaster them in solar power?
I've wondered why they don't install solar arrays over parking lots at shopping centers, business parks, and sports stadiums. It would have multiple advantages. In the winter it would reduce the amount of snow that accumulates on cars meaning that you have to spend less time cleaning the car after work or attending an event. In the summer it would reduce the solar heating that turns cars into ovens.
 
I've wondered why they don't install solar arrays over parking lots at shopping centers, business parks, and sports stadiums. It would have multiple advantages. In the winter it would reduce the amount of snow that accumulates on cars meaning that you have to spend less time cleaning the car after work or attending an event. In the summer it would reduce the solar heating that turns cars into ovens.
The only thing I could see is snow is really heavy and maintenance after hail storms.
When I was back in college a few years ago there was a conference or demonstration about micro wind turbines. Something that would be able to generate power at like Not sure how that panned out though. Might have been too good to be true.
 
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Pre grid wind was very common for pumping water. When I was a chid in the 1950s every farm had a few of these legacy Windmills still in place and perhaps 40% of them still operated. Every farm had at least one for pumping water for household and livestock use. Most had two or three located on the pastures. Despite that the Midwest is well watered with streams the need to compartmentalize the flat cropland made numerous windmills & pasture wells economical. Cheaper than the labor heading cattle around between pastures and streams in a sort live action Tetris game. Some clever souls wired these up to generators in the first half or the 20th Century. That practice was fading when I was a child & by the 1960s only a few holdouts and Hippies were still doing it.

The better idea is to use pumped storage hydroelectricity which is two reservoirs of water at different elevations where some is let out into a lower one to generate hydroelectric power in power deficit and pump some up from the lower into the higher in excess power.

A few of the those home run water pumps used this method to generate power when the wind slacked. On a near universal scale water storage is used in near every water provision system to maintain pressure. Thats what elevated reservoirs & those 2,000,000 liter tanks on towers are for. They are excellent at keeping a constant system wide pressure and keeping the water flowing. The electrical or fuel powered pumps only run to keep the reservoir topped off.
 
I've wondered why they don't install solar arrays over parking lots at shopping centers, business parks, and sports stadiums. It would have multiple advantages. In the winter it would reduce the amount of snow that accumulates on cars meaning that you have to spend less time cleaning the car after work or attending an event. In the summer it would reduce the solar heating that turns cars into ovens.

Its being done now. Solar electrical generators are supplementing standing lights on a commercial scale. That has a substantial up front cost. You can also order up the same for running security lights around your suburban home. While those can be expensive they are often cheaper than retrofitting power wires to the lamp position.

I've seen advertised standing light towers for parking lots that were designed from the start to include solar arrays. The elegant model in the ad looked like a tall mushroom or perhaps a water plant.
 
Hudson Bay: area 1,230,000 km^2. Output: 3690000MW (32346540000000kW-h/yr
Great Slave Lake: area 27,200km^2. Output: 54400MW (476870400000kW-h/yr)
Great Bear Lake: area 31,153km^2. Output: 62306MW (546174396000kW-h/yr)
All of that is incredibly remote from population centers and the few people who live there would rather not have their waters carpeted with wind turbines.
The desert states lack suitable hydroelectric sites tho.
They have plenty of hydro sites, they just don't have the water to use them for pumped storage meaning alternative systems would be needed like flywheel energy storage.
 
Am I completely nuts? Or are we missing a gigantic opportunity?
When you are designing a grid level renewable energy production system you need 4 basic things:
1. A site with good production potential.

For wind production this ideally means not just strong winds but steady. Frequent gusts do not make for good production, and turbines do have overspeed safeties past which the equipment will shut down (blades turn into wind and breaks applied) to avoid damage. If the site regularly passes these speeds it will be just as unsuitable as one with too little flow. And finally the site has to be relatively free from obstructions, as air streams become delaminated ( form vortexes) when there are too many buildings or trees in the way. Obviously this refers to the situation at turbine height, which will be more stable than at ground.

2. Easy links to the existing electrical grid.

Often transmission is the most expensive component of electrical production. For a good example look at the Muskrat Falls project in Newfoundland. Absolutely enormous production potential. But the challenges of transmission to customer have made its economic viability suspect. So generally you prefer to put your high capacity renewable installation near to a High Capacity existing transmission line to minimize the capital costs involved.

3. Support from the Grid Shareholders

Transmission systems are a bit like railways. They have a maximum transport capacity no matter if the load is in production or distribution. And competition for that capacity can be fierce. This gets in to who owned the grid. In some places, it is privately owned by a company (sometimes also a distributor or producer, or both) who may or may not be willing to allow a competitor to use their infrastructure. Sometimes it is publicly owned but requires certain criteria be met to allow you to put power into the grid. In any case, to allow for renewable power to be produced you need enough support from enough shareholders to allow you to overcome most distributors natural hostility to competition. If we take Slave Lake as an example, both the government and a good chunk of the population have been kind of lukewarm on renewable energy projects (as an energy engineer, it is so fun to go home and have my parents tell me that, math be damned, Wind power is never economically viable and exists only due to ideological dislike of the oil sector). So getting the support required to allow transmission on high capacity lines from Northern Alberta to where all the customers are, would take some work

4. A Customer that will pay for your product.

In the end, energy is a product, and nobody likes spending more for it. So it has to match your customers needs. If we take Hudson Bay as an example. The closest areas with high consumption that could use your mass of wind energy are in Manitoba near Winnipeg, Ontario, especially the Greater Toronto Area, and Quebec, especially around Montreal. All in different directions and all requiring long transmission runs with associated lines loss, driving up the cost. Manitoba is too small to use the amount of power you would be producing. Quebec already has a crap ton of hydro power(with lines running in the opposite direction from Hudson Bay) that you are unlikely going to be able to compete with on price. In Ontario you have another problem. Wind production peaks on a day scale at night, and on an annual scale during the winter. But, like most places with a large industrial component, Ontario’s grid demand peaks during the day. So you would be supplying the greatest amount of power when Ontario needs it least. That is why Ontario has an expansive support for solar power, since solar production peaks at the same time as demand.

Obviously, all of these are relative. If the market is there you will accept less than perfect conditions. But in general production in remote areas will not be competitive with more local sources.

Gravitational storage: use excess power to haul weights uphill, let them descend later to generate power. An array of steel towers with concrete masses moving up and down like elevator counterweights should conceivably be able to store hundreds of megawatt hours.
It is not the amount of storage possible, it is the cost per unit of stored energy. We can store absolutely massive amounts of energy in many ways. The trick is doing so economically. Gravity storage is a bit of an emerging technology and has only shown itself feasible in certain situations so far. It has a ways to go before it is proven viable on a large scale.

The better idea is to use pumped storage hydroelectricity which is two reservoirs of water at different elevations where some is let out into a lower one to generate hydroelectric power in power deficit and pump some up from the lower into the higher in excess power.

Also massive desert states like New Mexico and Nevada, why not plaster them in solar power?
Pumped storage is very situational. You need a pretty large head between the two reservoirs and a small amount of lateral distance. That requires very steep grades with appropriate sites at both the top and bottom. Not a lot of places have the topography required.

The only thing I could see is snow is really heavy and maintenance after hail storms.
When I was back in college a few years ago there was a conference or demonstration about micro wind turbines. Something that would be able to generate power at like Not sure how that panned out though. Might have been too good to be true.
My professor used to go on rants about micro scale wind turbines. Opinions obviously vary but micro scale can often have simple payback periods in excess of the expected project life. In other words you would not make your investment back. Now that obviously depends on the details of the situation and with rising power costs, and (ideally) falling equipment costs with increased production, those numbers may be starting to change. I haven’t done a comparative estimate in a few years.
 

marathag

Banned
Some clever souls wired these up to generators in the first half or the 20th Century. That practice was fading when I was a child & by the 1960s only a few holdouts and Hippies were still doing it.
1920s, Wincharger and Jacobs Wind Turbines in the upper Midwest, put out 6 to 32 volts for charging lead acid batteries and a line of low voltage DC appliances , radios, pumps and even refrigerators
Rural Electrification pretty much killed that market, besides the limitations of using low volt DC
 
All of that is incredibly remote from population centers and the few people who live there would rather not have their waters carpeted with wind turbines.
I daresay the lakes are large enough the windmills will scarcely be noticed by most people. (Only about half the lake surface is being used, recall.)
The other bodies of water you mention are far away from people, so that’s probably an even bigger factor in their non-development (and some of them would pose serious challenges with annual freezes/thaws)
Noted.

However...power generation need not be adjacent, as the James Bay Project demonstrates.

Ice is a factor I hadn't considered, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

A lot of the history of wind energy in the US (and Canada, and many other countries) consists of grid management actively not wanting wind on the grid, because it requires them to put more work into managing the system if different power stations have drastically different operational requirements- coal and gas are great: they turn on and off when you tell them and are entirely predictable. Nuclear's less desirable- turning it off is a whole process, and so you only want to use it as a low base load. But renewables are the worst: they don't turn on when you tell them to (if the wind's not blowing) and they don't want to turn off when you tell them to (since if they turn off at peak operational efficiency, they have no guarantee that those conditions will be available next time they're called up.)
Can I get around that with a kind of cheat? That is, being able to "export" power on demand, so the grid can switch from "use" to "sell" at will? (I know, we can't; that's why I'm calling it a cheat. I have something in mind, but don't want to say.)
 
Diesel & gasoline powered generators did their part as well. Farmers could get 120 volts off those & run common electric Motors & heaters or other appliances.
 
My professor used to go on rants about micro scale wind turbines. Opinions obviously vary but micro scale can often have simple payback periods in excess of the expected project life. In other words you would not make your investment back. Now that obviously depends on the details of the situation and with rising power costs, and (ideally) falling equipment costs with increased production, those numbers may be starting to change. I haven’t done a comparative estimate in a few years.

Less than two decades ago people would rant to me about solar generators being to inefficient to have any practical use. When you looked at the curve for efficiency growth of them it was clear the tipping point was nearly at hand, but that was not commonly understood. Its the same for any technology. multiple incremental improvements & the occasional 'breakthrough' changes the equations.
 
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