AHQ: U-boat sinking rate to achieve victory?

How many tires does it take to cover a submarine?Buy more rubber from say Malaya?See a problem here about secrecy?
Low grade distillate to fuel a medium speed diesel suitable for a sub in ww2 or earlier.Nope.
Radio silence while on patrol.......then how do you gather your patrol line into a wolf pack.
More patrol aircraft means more Hurricanes on cam ships earlier.
Radar on subs means you can be detected before you can target.
Starting a massive rearmament earlier than OTL means Germany hits the economic wall sooner so has to start the war sooner.
Targeting just lone ships will convince the ship owners sooner that this convoy thing is a good idea.
Basically that physics thing of for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.....except the folks reacting have more resources to draw on......like cash and credit.

i think the biggest problem is the German attitude of what matters most is what's at the pointy end and all that support stuff is much less important.
just my thoughts.
 
all 500 of them.........a run on the canvas supply
The max number of slips I calculated was 50.
That's a long way from 500.
As for permanent storage, the Germans could start building U-boat bunkers sooner.
At least it's better than building an Autobahn that never got used until post-WW2.
 
The max number of slips I calculated was 50.
That's a long way from 500.
As for permanent storage, the Germans could start building U-boat bunkers sooner.
At least it's better than building an Autobahn that never got used until post-WW2.
That autobahn came in very handy for the allies and their mechanized armies.
You are aware that one of Goerings "friends" was flying around Germany in a Lockheed Electra photographing military installations(Hint he wasn t german) so all that building activity will not go unnoticed thereby eliciting a reaction.
 

McPherson

Banned
How many tires does it take to cover a submarine?Buy more rubber from say Malaya?See a problem here about secrecy?
Low grade distillate to fuel a medium speed diesel suitable for a sub in ww2 or earlier.Nope.
Radio silence while on patrol.......then how do you gather your patrol line into a wolf pack.
More patrol aircraft means more Hurricanes on cam ships earlier.
Radar on subs means you can be detected before you can target.
Starting a massive rearmament earlier than OTL means Germany hits the economic wall sooner so has to start the war sooner.
Targeting just lone ships will convince the ship owners sooner that this convoy thing is a good idea.
Basically that physics thing of for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.....except the folks reacting have more resources to draw on......like cash and credit.

i think the biggest problem is the German attitude of what matters most is what's at the pointy end and all that support stuff is much less important.
just my thoughts.

a. 3300 square meters of rubber per sub x 200 subs. 660,000 meters or 66,000 truck tire sets worth. If you want 1000 subs that is 330,000 thousand truck tire sets worth. That means a lot fewer airplanes and radios and TANKs.
b. Agreed.
c. Sealed orders with navigational position KILLBOX assignments and start patrol lines, the same procedure as Lockwood and staff did for Philippine Sea. Got two aircraft carriers and a couple of tankers that way.
d. Tough tiddily winks for Goering's guys. At least the GD LW is out there earning its flight pay with recon reports and not wasting gas doing stupid stuff.
e. Trade-offs. Night radar ambush tactics makes life tougher on the defender.
f. As if the Berlin Maniac cares. We are dealing with fantasists and ideological idiots. They do not live in reality-ville with the rest of us.
g. And that produces the clogged ports phenomenon, which is a logistical logjam that might be a U-boat war bonus.
h. And brains and talent. Refer to F.

McP.
 
How many tires does it take to cover a submarine?Buy more rubber from say Malaya?See a problem here about secrecy?
Low grade distillate to fuel a medium speed diesel suitable for a sub in ww2 or earlier.Nope.
Radio silence while on patrol.......then how do you gather your patrol line into a wolf pack.
More patrol aircraft means more Hurricanes on cam ships earlier.
Radar on subs means you can be detected before you can target.
Starting a massive rearmament earlier than OTL means Germany hits the economic wall sooner so has to start the war sooner.
Targeting just lone ships will convince the ship owners sooner that this convoy thing is a good idea.
Basically that physics thing of for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.....except the folks reacting have more resources to draw on......like cash and credit.

i think the biggest problem is the German attitude of what matters most is what's at the pointy end and all that support stuff is much less important.
just my thoughts.
1) Only a portion/percentage of the U-boats will have the Alberich coating. Synthetic oil can cover the demand.
2) Special synthetic diesel? If your going to make synthetic oil why stop there?
3) A special signal word that's changed every 2 weeks, followed by coordinate. Radio silence otherwise.
4) It takes time for a Hurricane to get up to the same altitude as the marine patrol plane, by then the patrol plane already has flown away after directing half a dozen U-boats to the convoy.
5) Yeah, but it will take time for the RN and Commonwealth navies to get detectors as well
6) Earlier rearmament can be coordinated with RAD
7) Now that all the merchants are in one place, send a cruiser or 2 to disperse the escorts and scatter the merchants. It's showtime.
 
That autobahn came in very handy for the allies and their mechanized armies.
You are aware that one of Goerings "friends" was flying around Germany in a Lockheed Electra photographing military installations(Hint he wasn t german) so all that building activity will not go unnoticed thereby eliciting a reaction.
Better security in general and no special favors for foreign guests like Charles Lindbergh (he got to fly the Ju 88 and Bf 109) can go a long way.
Better paranoid than dead, as they say.
 
As I see it there are two major problems with creating a secret large sub force.
First is that the Nazis flaunted their military expansion every chance they had so keeping it secret just doesn t seem like something they would do and of course battleships make bigger penis extenders than subs.
Secondly geography.There are three major opponents to deal with.One that is thought to have the largest most powerful army in the world shares a land border.The one with the largest population is separated by a small country and we aren t quite sure how big their army is.The third has the worlds largest navy but a tiny army and separated by a large body of water.So who do you prioritize defending/attacking against?
So until France falls focusing on a sub force doesn t seem plausible.
So the fall of France should be the point at which you can diverge from OTL.Maybe.Perhaps.Possibly.But what is uncle Joe up to.
 

McPherson

Banned
1) Only a portion/percentage of the U-boats will have the Alberich coating. Synthetic oil can cover the demand.
2) Special synthetic diesel? If your going to make synthetic oil why stop there?
3) A special signal word that's changed every 2 weeks, followed by coordinate. Radio silence otherwise.
4) It takes time for a Hurricane to get up to the same altitude as the marine patrol plane, by then the patrol plane already has flown away after directing half a dozen U-boats to the convoy.
5) Yeah, but it will take time for the RN and Commonwealth navies to get detectors as well
6) Earlier rearmament can be coordinated with RAD
7) Now that all the merchants are in one place, send a cruiser or 2 to disperse the escorts and scatter the merchants. It's showtime.

1. 10 gallons of oil for 1 truck tire. =~3.3 square meters of anechoic tile. Take 3300 square meters per u-boat or 1320 truck tires or 13,200 gallons of synthetic oil for 1 sub. Try 100 subs? b1,320,000 gallons of synthetic oil or 528,000 tons of coal. give or take 25%.
2. Because you don't have the catalysts.
3. Bullshit. How does positive command control work without a Fox schedule?
4. Radar warning gives 20 minutes to reach attack position. Dead LRMP.
5. Bullshit. They will have detectors designed to IFF before the U-boats get radar.
6. Assertion. Evidence? Kama was not that easy to pull off.
7. In what sense? "Hey, Rupert, there is a Pocket Battleship out here that needs more portholes below the waterline. Can do? Okey dokey. We'll execute Plan Dog. and lead him straight to you."


Better security in general and no special favors for foreign guests like Charles Lindbergh (he got to fly the Ju 88 and Bf 109) can go a long way.
Better paranoid than dead, as they say.

Except Fatso had so many Hunting Lodge Buddies. (Sidney Cotton.).
 
Germans could start building U-boat bunkers sooner.

At least it's better than building an Autobahn that never got used until post-WW2.
All that damn concrete... :eek:
How many tires does it take to cover a submarine?Buy more rubber from say Malaya?See a problem here about secrecy?
Anechoic tiles are too immature a tech for WW2.
Low grade distillate to fuel a medium speed diesel suitable for a sub in ww2 or earlier.Nope.
Suggestion only.
Radio silence while on patrol.......then how do you gather your patrol line into a wolf pack.
Most boats won't be working in packs. And you do it the same way the Pac Fleet did: contact reports re-radiated by BdU, & by ops orders. Boats on a patrol line aren't deaf, either, so they're likely to read & copy a contact report from nearby boats. (Co-ordination of packmates once contact is made, to avoid fraticide, is harder.) Nobody's saying U-boats should be silenced entirely under any circumstances, just stopped from the stupid, pointless, suicidal, codebreaker-enhancing levels of traffic of OTL.
More patrol aircraft means more Hurricanes on cam ships earlier.
Fair point.
Radar on subs means you can be detected before you can target.
I'm unaware Allied escorts had RWR. (Once it's clear U-boats have FC radar, that will change...) More to the point, if you're using it for firecontrol, not search, you don't advertise, you "ping range" & shut off.
Targeting just lone ships will convince the ship owners sooner that this convoy thing is a good idea.
Except it didn't OTL, or there wouldn't have been so many singletons sunk. How much harder would they have to be hit for that to change? IDK.
Sealed orders with navigational position KILLBOX assignments and start patrol lines, the same procedure as Lockwood and staff did for Philippine Sea.
As I'm reading the intent, it presumed silence entire, from sighting to first attack. Patrol lines still have to co-ordinate, but by the time DF (even ship-borne) has that, contact is already made.
Special synthetic diesel? If your going to make synthetic oil why stop there?
That sounds good. Can it be done without sacrificing something else?
A special signal word that's changed every 2 weeks, followed by coordinate. Radio silence otherwise.
More/less, yes. The report itself is likely to be detected by DF, & convoy ordered to change course, but that was true OTL, too.

I frankly don't know if a codeword is essential. A report formatted as a contact report would, AIUI, have a particular signal message header {making the codeword moot}, & would be little more than "ships in Box AA". It would be signed by the originating boat, & any boats on a patrol line would very likely be listening for such signals messages {I have to stop calling them signals...:'( ), even without alerts from Lorient.
Now that all the merchants are in one place, send a cruiser or 2 to disperse the escorts and scatter the merchants. It's showtime.
That would be ideal. :cool: Diverting RN heavies to escort duty...

Truth is, tho, if you're attacking the average slow convoy, you only face 3-4 corvettes, so don't overstate the risk from escorts. Besides, the goal is to improve sinkings of single ships, too, not just from convoys.

Given convoy escorts have to be better, doesn't that mean Canada will have to have domestic gyrocompass production (which didn't obtain OTL:eek::confounded: ) to make Hedgehog work? Does it also mean Canada will be building RWRs as well as (instead of?) domestic-designed radars (which weren't as good)? (A facility in Newfoundland, rather than needing to go all the way to Halifax, to upgrade with better Brit-standard radar would be good, too.) This, however, is for the "How to make the German job harder" thread...:openedeyewink:

Come to think of it, if the *Type IX has higher surfaced speed, have we butterflied the OTL corvette entirely? It would be too slow... What replaces it? An Egret variant? (They'd have to have recip engines to be built in Canada, I think...)
 
Except Fatso had so many Hunting Lodge Buddies. (Sidney Cotton.).




Here is another example of Sydney Cotton's ingenuity.

"Air superiority blue/PRU blue[edit]
About these coordinates Colour coordinates
PRU Blue/Air Superiority Blue
Hex triplet#72A0C1
sRGBB (r, g, b)(114, 160, 193)
CMYKH (c, m, y, k)(41, 17, 0, 24)
HSV (h, s, v)(205°, 41%, 76%)
Source[9]
ISCC–NBS descriptorLight greenish blue
B: Normalized to [0–255] (byte)
H: Normalized to [0–100] (hundred)
At right is displayed the colour air superiority blue/PRU Blue.


A Spitfire PR Mk XI finished overall in PRU Blue/Air Superiority Blue
The source of this colour is Federal Standard 595, a U.S. Federal Government standard set up in 1956 for paint colours, which is mostly used by military contractors and also in engineering.[10] Air superiority blue is designated as Federal Standard 595 colour #FS 15450.

Photographic Reconnaissance Unit (PRU) Blue was devised by the RAF during WW II as a low visibility camouflage colour for its high-flying Spitfire and Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft.

As "air superiority blue" it was then adopted by the US Army Air Force and was added as one of the colours when the Federal Standard 595 colour list was set up in 1956. This colour is used as camouflage by being painted on the bottom sides of reconnaissance aircraft to make them less visible from the ground."
 

Garrison

Donor
The slips are utilitarian.
They could just say that the slips are for merchant ships as the German merchant marine was seized at the end of WW1.
Rebuilding a merchant marine isn't going to cause WW2 to break out earlier.
As well, factories making batteries, engines and all the other internal component can just have their purpose disguised. Batteries could be for cars, engines for merchant ships, etc.

You really are suggesting the British and French intelligence services have the IQ of a 5 year old. You earlier suggested that the slipways be roofed over and the Germans use some battleship program to distract the British, it's simply absurd. You are proposing a project that will take a decade or more, involve tens if not hundreds of thousands of workers in factories and shipyards, you have sections of U-Boat being shipped all over Germany, thousands of men being recruited to man the U-Boats and of course the U-Boats themselves having to go to sea for training. On top of this you are proposing this massive program be started at a time when Weimar has almost no army and absolutely no airforce and the French are still militant enough to occupy the Rhineland if the Germans provoke them.

The French opted for a massive program focused on defending their borders that turned out to be very useless when push came to shove. Your point?

The French spent their money defending against the primary threat to their nation, the very opposite of your U-Boat proposal.

As well, the UK isn't going to fight Germany without France. And France was bankrupt in 1936 after their whole economic debacle so war was definitely the last thing on their minds.

And again you propose that Germany radically changes policy in the 1920's but that everything on the Allied side remains exactly the same. Why would France wait until 1936 to act if your U-Boat program has been in place since the 1920's. I should also point out that if you want to invoke OTL economic conditions 1936 was the year France abandoned to gold standard which brought a certain mount of turmoil, but at the same time it was very bad for a struggling German economy as it made France more competitive in international trade right at the time when Germany was struggling badly under the weight of rearmament spending.

Unless you envision a Gallipoli style landing on German shores which results in total disaster?

Ignoring your strawman. More likely the occupation of the Rhineland by the French for the second time in 20 years and/or the British refusing to make concessions on reparations at the end of the 20's in the light of Germany engaging in profligate military spending.
 

Garrison

Donor
It's the tarp that says I am hiding something.
Yeah the plan ATM appears to be hide the slipways, claim they are just building merchant ships and then have the British and French shrug their shoulders and decide 'seems legit' without in anyway bothering to check, and this starting in the 1920's when neither Britain nor France are inclined to appease Germany.
 
U-boats split into different prefab pieces, with those pieces being built in secret factories and then assembled under in a covered dockyard.
Meanwhile, Nazi propaganda emphasizes the construction of new capital ships, drawing attention away from U-boats.
Big problem here is getting those Nazi bigshots to cooperate on this project.

In terms of training, German destroyers/escorts and U-boats should have done training exercises together before the war.
Destroyers/escorts hunt for U-Boats while the U-boats try to score a "kill" on the escorts and the ships they're protecting (merchant raiders can be used to fill the role of merchant ships in a convoy)

Because that worked SO well in OTL.
I don't see where in the timescale they have the years to try this and actually work at getting it right.

And while training with destroyers is certainly a lot better than not training, RN A/S work was in a different league to the KM. It might lead to an unjustified overconfidence in the U-boat crews.
 
I should point out that a building yard for submarines has considerable (and spottable) differences to one building merchant ships. Its not just a hole in the ground and a few welders...

Covering up the slipway worked for Japan (they did it for the Yamatos) for two reasons Germany cant copy. First they were in a position where overflights or near overflights were impossible, and second it was almost impossible to slip agents into the Japanese workforce.
In any case, you aren't launching a ship every year or two, you're launching a sub every few days. Its rather, well, obvious when you launch something, and impossible to hide locally.

Now on the subject of the magic skilled German workers that suddenly appear. Just no. Read Tooze.
Russia was a manpower sink. The Germans used forced and slave labour because they had no other option. I'm sure the fact that this les to lower productivity, poor quality and sabotage was obvious, but the alternative was no production at all. The women workers is another misunderstanding. Germany had a lower proportion of women in factory jobs. Not women in work. They were working on the farms that kept Germany fed.

And a final note of the material needs of a U-boat fleet before the war. You really need to ramp it up fast, before the British notice it and bury you under A/S escorts.
200 U-boats a year is around £100M. Construction is about 25% (maybe 30%) of your naval budget. So even if you build NO other ships, that's a naval budget of around £350M a year (actually its worse as you also need huge infrastructure improvements). Britain's naval budget in this period was around £60M - £90M.
So you are spending 4 times as much on JUST the navy as the worlds leading seapower. This is unfeasible and unbelievable on SO many levels...
 
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