AHC WI: Protestant Portugal

[Matteo]

Kinda... doubtfull. Looking at the cliché scandinavian and arguably british 'the tall poppies' syndroma... it sounds a bit, ya know..

For Italy, you had printers and a growing bourgeois proto capitalistic class, to use Marxist parlance - Italy of the Renaissance is a proof that Catholics can be as capitalistic as Protestants.
AND poltiical atomisation and Italy, well..
They also dealed with non catholics or even christians gladly. Who traded with the Byzantines and Ottomans over time much, you wonder?

Italy was rich.

The books you read may have had a certain Protestant bias, carefully. 'Milking cows' of the Papcy? sounds kinda...

This is not about protestant caricature. I don't live nor was raised in a protestant or majority-protestant country. I know Italy was rich. But Italy had some kind of development quite different from Germany or England or the Netherlands. it was much less bottom-up.

And this is a fact : Italy, thanks to the papacy, profited from a big net influx of capital from other european countries : most of all the HRE. If you have visited Italy, you know what I am referin to. Much has gone into stone and art.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

This is not about protestant caricature. I don't live nor was raised in a protestant or majority-protestant country. I know Italy was rich. But Italy had some kind of development quite different from Germany or England or the Netherlands. it was much less bottom-up.

And this is a fact : Italy, thanks to the papacy, profited from a big net influx of capital from other european countries : most of all the HRE. If you have visited Italy, you know what I am referin to. Much has gone into stone and art.

Actually, the economy of Italy didn't come as much or only from the church, but the VERY profitable merchants powers as Venise, Genoa, etc...

Those guys mattered more perhaps. The power of the Papacy was not as strong, politicially and economically, as you may think.

And those mecenes, they where also rich marchands, lords as the Medicis...

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Having a Protestant Portugal is pretty much impossible without Spain going first.

Unless it goes later, with the support of Anglican Britain.

 

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Unless it goes later, with the support of Anglican Britain.

Good point. The Anglo-Portuguese alliance is the oldest surviving alliance of OTL. . .

 

[pompejus]

Good point. The Anglo-Portuguese alliance is the oldest surviving alliance of OTL. . .

The thing is, if Portugal becomes protestant, while Spain doesn't, Spain will react and invade Portugal and there is nothing anyone can do. It probably means a lot of protestant Portuguese will be fleeing Portugal for England (and other protestant countries).

The end result of a protestant Portugal will probably a Portugal that is part of Spain and it would mean that Spain is even more overstretched than OTL, Spain being less successful in fighting protestantism in the north (thus probably a larger Netherlands, maybe some butterflies in France and Germany).

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The thing is, if Portugal becomes protestant, while Spain doesn't, Spain will react and invade Portugal and there is nothing anyone can do. It probably means a lot of protestant Portuguese will be fleeing Portugal for England (and other protestant countries).

The end result of a protestant Portugal will probably a Portugal that is part of Spain and it would mean that Spain is even more overstretched than OTL, Spain being less successful in fighting protestantism in the north (thus probably a larger Netherlands, maybe some butterflies in France and Germany).

After the Napoleonic Wars? Spain's going to attack an ally of the most powerful nation in the world? At a time when Spain is weak? I don't think so.

 

[pompejus]

After the Napoleonic Wars? Spain's going to attack an ally of the most powerful nation in the world? At a time when Spain is weak? I don't think so.

After the Napoleonic wars? I assume the POD will be around the reformation, when Spain was the local super power, while England was fairly unimportant. I really doubt Portugal will turn protestant after the reformation, especially not as late as the Napoleonic wars.

 

[Viriato]

One way Portugal could have become Protestant was through influence from the Netherlands. Lisbon had been linked to the Netherlands through trade since since the 15th century. By the 16th century, Antwerp was Portugal's most important source of imports as well as destination for its exports.

Because of this, the ideas of Erasmus made their way into the Portuguese court and contemporary Portuguese writers such as Damião de Góis were heavily influenced by Dutch humanism, though he was later imprisoned by the Inquisition in Goa. Gil Vicente, Diogo de Teive and Manuel Travassos all wrote in favour of the reformation as well.

However, being so far from the epicentre of the Reformed Movement, to have a Protestant Portugal you would need a Portuguese monarch sometime in the 16th century adopt the ideas from the Netherlands, you could see a Calvinist or Lutheran Portugal. On the other hand, influence of England was also important and Lusitanian Church could emerge from a monarch wanting to usurp church lands and wealth for himself.

As for Spain, this wouldn't be the first time the two countries were divided on religious allegiances. One has to remember that during the schism Portugal remained loyal to Rome along with England. Whereas the rest of Iberia recognised the Avignon Papacy. Also, one has to remember that the repression against heresy in Portugal was not as strong as it was in neighbouring Spain. The first Lutheran wasn't condemned by the Portuguese inquisition was Manuel Travassos in 1571, so that was fairly late.

 

[HunterX]

After the Napoleonic Wars? Spain's going to attack an ally of the most powerful nation in the world? At a time when Spain is weak? I don't think so.

You're a couple of centuries off, a Portugese conversion would take place much earlier, during the height of Spanish power.

 

[Dornish Red]

Actually... There is for Itally.

There is a pre Luther 'proto Protestant' movement called the Waldesians I believe, which later joined the Calvinist world I think. It was quite local, if a minor thing and surely repressed harshly.

And in another part of Europe, Poland had a certain Protestant vogue a moment before being.. reined more and fully back in Catholicism, I heard somewhere.

Of any one part of Europe during the medieval period, Italy (taken as a whole, not individual states and duchies and such) had the most revolts and uprisings of anywhere. It was also one of the most urbanized and advanced societies of anywhere on the continent after the fall of Rome. So it's clearly a case that while the conditions for revolt were hardly limited to Italy, the conditions that allowed for a successful revolt to gain steam were limeted elsewhere on the continent.

The problem with Protestantism in Italy is that while the political fragmentation similar to the Holy Roman Empire did exist, it was also the center of Catholic power (for obvious reasons). A Protestant revolt happening and then taking root seems unlikely because its neighbors would more likely than not band together to stamp it out.

Iberia (to include both Spain and Portugal)... as far as I know really didn't have the same problems with church corruption that other parts of Europe did around the time of the Reformation. It also had a very strong tradition of centralized, absolute monarchy and the printing press wasn't as widespread there as it was elsewhere in Europe. The Catholic Church was powerful, popular, and often protected by the state. Protestantism in Iberia around the time of the Reformation just strikes me as not really having any chance to spread. Let alone in somewhere like Portugal, it would make that period in time even more of a Hispanowank than it already was: the Spanish would crush Portuguese Protestantism and more likely than not use it as an excuse to build up their influence in Portugal in the aftermath.

 

[martin76]

Iberia (to include both Spain and Portugal)... as far as I know really didn't have the same problems with church corruption that other parts of Europe did around the time of the Reformation. It also had a very strong tradition of centralized, absolute monarchy and the printing press wasn't as widespread there as it was elsewhere in Europe. The Catholic Church was powerful, popular, and often protected by the state. Protestantism in Iberia around the time of the Reformation just strikes me as not really having any chance to spread. Let alone in somewhere like Portugal, it would make that period in time even more of a Hispanowank than it already was: the Spanish would crush Portuguese Protestantism and more likely than not use it as an excuse to build up their influence in Portugal in the aftermath.

Well, I prefer to name Spain or Hispania because It was the name used by the people in that time.. not Iberia.. a greek name didin´t use in XV-XVI centuries.. The Spanish churches (Both Castille-Aragon and Portugal) were fighter churches..from VIII century so they were less corrupted than the others west european churches.
Truth. The printing press arrived late to Hispania (1472) and had less printign press than France, Italia, Germany... but more than Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Low Countries, Norway, Russia, Poland etc etc
I think like you it would be impossible a protestant Portugal in XVI or XVII Centuries..The Catholic King would never have tolerated. And in XIX century was too too late.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is have Portugal go Protestant with a POD after 1492. Bonus points if any part of Iberia does not go Protestant before Portugal does.

After Portugal goes Protestant, what is fate of Brazil and the rest of Portuguese Empire? And the rest of the world?

After the Napoleonic wars? I assume the POD will be around the reformation, when Spain was the local super power, while England was fairly unimportant. I really doubt Portugal will turn protestant after the reformation, especially not as late as the Napoleonic wars.

But, as pointed out by several, a conversion that early would ensure invasion and subjugation by Spain.

I'm proposing a much later split with Rome (less 'protestant', more 'anglican') as the most likely possible way to get it to succeed.

 

[Just a Rube]

But, as pointed out by several, a conversion that early would ensure invasion and subjugation by Spain.

I'm proposing a much later split with Rome (less 'protestant', more 'anglican') as the most likely possible way to get it to succeed.

Except by that point Catholicism is too deeply entrenched. If you look at states that went Protestant, it mostly happened in the century or two after the Reformation, and then effectively stopped. Protestant vs. Catholic had gotten tied up with nationalism, which made it much harder to convince nations to flip.

Besides, a pope in the 18th/19th centuries isn't going to be sufficiently hostile (or more importantly powerful) to create the conditions to allow a Henry VIII situation to happen; any ruler who feels uppity can go for a Gallican-style solution instead, and everyone will be happy.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Except by that point Catholicism is too deeply entrenched. If you look at states that went Protestant, it mostly happened in the century or two after the Reformation, and then effectively stopped. Protestant vs. Catholic had gotten tied up with nationalism, which made it much harder to convince nations to flip.

Besides, a pope in the 18th/19th centuries isn't going to be sufficiently hostile (or more importantly powerful) to create the conditions to allow a Henry VIII situation to happen; any ruler who feels uppity can go for a Gallican-style solution instead, and everyone will be happy.

But, the fact of the matter is that the Pope and the Church hierarchy supported the reactionary forces in the War of the Two Brothers iOTL. They WERE that hostile to the winning party (when it wasn't winning), I could easily see a situation where the Roman Church is viewed as being traitorous or anti-Portuguese, and splitting from Rome would be a viable political ploy.

If you want to say that the Roman Hierarchy had more political nous than that, well, the epitome of 'political skill in the furtherance of the Church' is embodied in the Jesuits - and they got themselves expelled from Portugal at the time, as well as a few other liberal countries.

Yes, it's a low probability thing. Yes, it would be a 'Portuguese National Catholic Church', not initially a real 'Protestant' one. BUT. That's precisely what Henry VIII had in mind for England, and it evolved fast.

Besides, being able to seize all that Church land to fund the government? That's got to be a serious incentive.