AHC WI: Protestant Portugal

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is have Portugal go Protestant with a POD after 1492. Bonus points if any part of Iberia does not go Protestant before Portugal does.

After Portugal goes Protestant, what is fate of Brazil and the rest of Portuguese Empire? And the rest of the world?
 
Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is have Portugal go Protestant with a POD after 1492. Bonus points if any part of Iberia does not go Protestant before Portugal does.

After Portugal goes Protestant, what is fate of Brazil and the rest of Portuguese Empire? And the rest of the world?

If Spain is strong Portugal will go protestant and then bye bye.
 
I see endless war between Protestant Portugal and Hapsburg Spain that only ends once Charles II dies due to being inbred.
 
Juan de Trastamara survives and does not love his Habsburg wife so much. She only bears him a daughter and several miscarriages. He pulls a Henry Their and divorces her the pope does not approve and he forms the Hispanic Church. To stay independent Portugal follows him. And it is even after 1492
 
Juan de Trastamara survives and does not love his Habsburg wife so much. She only bears him a daughter and several miscarriages. He pulls a Henry Their and divorces her the pope does not approve and he forms the Hispanic Church. To stay independent Portugal follows him. And it is even after 1492

Difficult, considering the strategic role of Spain in Italy, the mere threat (as the Catholic Monarchs themselves did) would be enough for any Pope -save a pro-French one- to give in. In any case, there already sort of was a Hispanic Church, the Spanish monarchs basically used the Church as an extension of the State. Also, from what you say, it sounds more like a breakaway Catholic state than a protestant one, keep in mind that many of the bad habits of the mediaeval Church were curbed under the reforms of Cardinal Cisneros in the late years of the Catholic Monarchs.
 
Liberal Portugal had a LOT of problems with the Church, e.g. supporting the conservative side in the War of the Two Brothers.

Make things a bit worse, and ya, I could see a Portuguese king pulling a Henry VIII?

I doubt it would be as Protestant as even the Anglican church, but Rome would count it so.

Probably liturgy in the vernacular, maybe priests can marry, certainly the king seizes a bunch of church property.
 
I see endless war between Protestant Portugal and Hapsburg Spain that only ends once Charles II dies due to being inbred.

Why would Charles II even exist if the POD can be well before his time? At least one of Charles II's 16th century ancestors was Portuguese, and there won't be any intermarriage between Spain and Portugal if the religious split occurs.

(If I remember correctly, part of the reason why the Hapsburgs were so inbred in the first place was because so many dynasties went Protestant, limiting the pool of acceptable marriages. . .)
 
Difficult, considering the strategic role of Spain in Italy, the mere threat (as the Catholic Monarchs themselves did) would be enough for any Pope -save a pro-French one- to give in. In any case, there already sort of was a Hispanic Church, the Spanish monarchs basically used the Church as an extension of the State. Also, from what you say, it sounds more like a breakaway Catholic state than a protestant one, keep in mind that many of the bad habits of the mediaeval Church were curbed under the reforms of Cardinal Cisneros in the late years of the Catholic Monarchs.

Henry was before he divorced Catherine a very zealous catholic. And under Juan the Church would be technical catholic in all but name but his successors aren't just like the Tudors after Henry if you ignore bloody Mary.
 
Why would Charles II even exist if the POD can be well before his time? At least one of Charles II's 16th century ancestors was Portuguese, and there won't be any intermarriage between Spain and Portugal if the religious split occurs.

(If I remember correctly, part of the reason why the Hapsburgs were so inbred in the first place was because so many dynasties went Protestant, limiting the pool of acceptable marriages. . .)

No, the Hapsburg were doing the incest marriage thing before that. The reason was to keep their land claims inside the family and avoid any interlopers getting a blood tie to their lands. Even with a Protestant Portugal this won't change. In fact it might make it even more imperative to the Hapsburgs to 'keep it in the family'.

I predict even more freaky things emerging in their gene pool.
 
Will a POD of Portugal getting shunned out of the Treaty of Tordesillas in the Catholic Kings' favor cause a Protestant Portugal more likely happen?
 
Will a POD of Portugal getting shunned out of the Treaty of Tordesillas in the Catholic Kings' favor cause a Protestant Portugal more likely happen?

Why would Portugal be left out of the Treaty? You couldn't have a treaty of Tordesillas without Portugal's involvement.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is have Portugal go Protestant with a POD after 1492. Bonus points if any part of Iberia does not go Protestant before Portugal does.

After Portugal goes Protestant, what is fate of Brazil and the rest of Portuguese Empire? And the rest of the world?

No way.

The protestant reformation also had cultural and political roots. And you could not find these roots in Portugal, Spain, Italy.
 
No way.

The protestant reformation also had cultural and political roots. And you could not find these roots in Portugal, Spain, Italy.

Actually... There is for Itally.

There is a pre Luther 'proto Protestant' movement called the Waldesians I believe, which later joined the Calvinist world I think. It was quite local, if a minor thing and surely repressed harshly.

And in another part of Europe, Poland had a certain Protestant vogue a moment before being.. reined more and fully back in Catholicism, I heard somewhere.
 

Lateknight

Banned
Actually... There is for Itally.

There is a pre Luther 'proto Protestant' movement called the Waldesians I believe, which later joined the Calvinist world I think. It was quite local, if a minor thing and surely repressed harshly.

And in another part of Europe, Poland had a certain Protestant vogue a moment before being.. reined more and fully back in Catholicism, I heard somewhere.

Their was polish Hussites maybye that's what your thinking of.
 
Actually... There is for Itally.

There is a pre Luther 'proto Protestant' movement called the Waldesians I believe, which later joined the Calvinist world I think. It was quite local, if a minor thing and surely repressed harshly.

And in another part of Europe, Poland had a certain Protestant vogue a moment before being.. reined more and fully back in Catholicism, I heard somewhere.

I know but a microscopic exception confirming the rule.

Turning Italy, Portugal and Spain protestant 4 or 5 centuries ago is the same as turning Saufi Arabia gay friendly or porn friendly.

To have protestantism succeed, you need 3 conditions :

- a culture/mindset favouring privacy/individuality rather than collective expression. That was the case in northern Europe, not in southern/latin/mediterranean Europe.

- you need enough printing houses,

- And you need tax-payers angry sending too much money abroad for the pope and the roman cardinals.

A plus if you have political atomization like in the HRE.

These conditions did not exist in Portugal and Spain that had long ago negotiated the fact that they directly fought muslims.
Nor in Italy which was the main profiter of money flows from other catholic countries.
Nor in France where the kingdom had long been strong enough to limit money flows towards Italy.

The HRE and England were the milk cows of italian papacy. That's also why they were so eager to reform the Church.
 
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- a culture/mindset favouring privacy/individuality rather than collective expression. That was the case in northern Europe, not in southern/latin/mediterranean Europe.

- you need enough printing houses,

- And you need tax-payers angry sending too much money abroad for the pope and the roman cardinals.

A plus if you have political atomization like in the HRE.

These conditions did not exist in Portugal and Spain that had long ago negotiated the fact that they directly fought muslims.
Nor in Italy which was the main profiter of money flows from other catholic countries.
Nor in France where the kingdom had long been strong enough to limit money flows towards Italy.

The HRE and England were the milk cows of italian papacy. That's also why they were so eager to reform the Church.

Kinda... doubtfull. Looking at the cliché scandinavian and arguably british 'the tall poppies' syndroma... it sounds a bit, ya know..

For Italy, you had printers and a growing bourgeois proto capitalistic class, to use Marxist parlance - Italy of the Renaissance is a proof that Catholics can be as capitalistic as Protestants.
AND poltiical atomisation and Italy, well..
They also dealed with non catholics or even christians gladly. Who traded with the Byzantines and Ottomans over time much, you wonder?

Italy was rich.

The books you read may have had a certain Protestant bias, carefully. 'Milking cows' of the Papcy? sounds kinda...
 
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