AHC/WI: Peace in 1940: Consequences for the British Empire and Asia (in general)

Hi again. So, I was thinking about a "plausible" scenario of a German victory in the Second World War. So one of the premises is that Churchill dies and the order for the BEF to withdraw comes a week or so later than OTL, which means that the Germans are able to cut off and capture the majority of the force before it is able to be evacuated. Lord Halifax comes to power in the UK and starts to explore the possibility of a treaty with Germany; ITTL, the Italian diplomatic establishment, fearful that if Britain was conquered or subjugated by the Reich, Germany's position in Europe would be too powerful, dramatically reducing Italy's freedom of action, manages to convince Mussolini to play the role of the peace broker as he had done in Munich in 1938. The terms offered (or ultimately agreed) are that:

a) normal economic and trade relations between the two countries are restored (but British assets in continental Europe and in overseas territories under the control of European governments are expropriated by the Germans, perhaps in exchange for compensation)

b) Britain returns Tankanyika and British Cameroon and Togoland to Germany

c) a ten year non-aggression pact is signed between the two governments

d) the British government recognises the territorial and regime changes in Europe since 1939. Perhaps the Germans could not include France as far as government changes are concerned, to make it more acceptable as a condition, since Vichy was to a large extent a homegrown phenomenon with a strong dose of Anglophobia. The the governments in exile aren't supported any more, but their members are given a choice between returning or staying in Britain (and losing their citizenship perhaps).

So there is peace in early July 1940, after the surrender of the French government has cast further doubt in the ability of Britain to continue the war. I think that, contrary to what is usually said, the peace wouldn't be a break before Britain reentered the conflict: the psychological and moral effects would be quite significant; the Dominions would probably be unwilling to reenter the conflict, especially if Britain was considered to have acted quite unilaterally in its efforts to exit the war; and last, but not least, India would loom large, with its nationalist leadership still agitated by the fact that they hadn't been consulted before the declaration of war in the name of India by the viceroy and a Britain not exhausted by the war but with damaged prestige from having recognised defeat and worried about the future economic prospects perhaps being unwilling to give India its independence. While Japan might not strike, if the Dutch East Indies had been restored to a German-allied Netherlands (which could allow in theory the Japanese to get access to the oil reserves of the area) and the British could perhaps agree to supply them with materials, Britain would have to deal with enough problems to keep its government preoccupied; the invasion of the Soviet Union would probably be seen as a mixed blessing, since on the one hand it would keep Germany busy, yet on the other hand, it would be considered to bring German forces closer to areas vital for Britain, such as Iran. In India, independence would probably be a more protacted, messy and bloody affair than OTL.

As far as the other colonial powers in Asia, defeat would probably have made the colonial authorities more worried as local opposition to European rule would mount; perhaps Japan, which could grow more distanced from Germany if Berlin decided that with the war in the West over, the alliance with Japan was of lesser value perhaps than attempting to restore a status quo that would allow German economic interests to reenter the Far Eastern markets, could start supporting anti-European movements in South and Southeastern Asia.

So, what do are your thoughts on these topic? I am not very well versed, so my post isn't particularly detailed; if you need further clarifications on something, I'll try to give them.
 
I don't think the British would agree with Germany getting its colonies back, a German-aligned DEI and German control of the French, Belgian and Dutch cast. The last is the only thing that's remotely plausible.
 

RuneGloves

Banned
Europe:
Britain recognises German territorial gains in Poland, perhaps some or all.
Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy, maybe Luxemburg. Germans were light on the Danish, letting them keep northern Schleswig.
With an expectation to release western European countries, although partially occupied, especially northern France.

I would imagine the state of these western governments are Denmark scenarios, re-enlist the liberal democratic establishments for legitimacy, and twist them into satellites.
However, the governments in exile would face increasing pressure, and gradually concede to the postwar situation.

It's rather insane, that the details of a German led peace would involve such minute harmless issues such as economic appropriation, compared to West's Morgenthau plan or ethnically cleansing Prussia, Silesia and Pommerania.

Asia:
India is going to be unruly, the INC can sense the weakness of Westminister, if demands aren't given in, likely a strong insurgency.
German-Japan relationship, I don't see it changing too much, unless Japan starts attacking German aligned states' colonies.
I'm unsure of French Indochina and Dutch East indies.

Africa:
Germany ain't getting it's territories back. At most reparations?
 
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I always find it interesting how a German led peace is softer for Britain than the otherway around.
Well, it's more for practical reasons. It's difficult, but perhaps doable, if Hitler wanted to have a really brief conflict and not a repetition of the previous war and perhaps wanted the laurels of victory more than total victory and perhaps wanted the laurels of victory.
 
I don't think the British would agree with Germany getting its colonies back, a German-aligned DEI and German control of the French, Belgian and Dutch cast. The last is the only thing that's remotely plausible.
Iirc, colonial concessions were sort of acceptable in the War Cabinet, the main sticking points were demands for military and economic disarmament. As for the coast, perhaps a clause that would allow only defensive military presence?
 
Britain's fear is that German that acquires colonies could put submarine and air bases in these places and raid commerce effectively, they won't agree to that.

The British Navy and Air Force, the second BEF isn't going over in this scenario and is available, and the Canadian Corps is sitting in Kent just the same in this TL, there is no reason to fear German invasion.

The British might make peace in this scenario, but don't have to give up anything themselves and will insist the Germans don't get French colonies either.
(The Germans can get Poland, and Alsace-Lorraine though)
 
Britain's fear is that German that acquires colonies could put submarine and air bases in these places and raid commerce effectively, they won't agree to that.

The British Navy and Air Force, the second BEF isn't going over in this scenario and is available, and the Canadian Corps is sitting in Kent just the same in this TL, there is no reason to fear German invasion.

The British might make peace in this scenario, but don't have to give up anything themselves and will insist the Germans don't get French colonies either.
(The Germans can get Poland, and Alsace-Lorraine though)
Hmm, fair. So no transfers from Britain and France (and Belgium perhaps) would make it more palatable?. (Hitler could agree perhaps to this, thinking he could always pull a Czechoslovakia March 1939 again after the war was definitely over).
 

RuneGloves

Banned
What system is Germany likely to use for occupied western territory?
Vichy France is already in their sway naturally, Denmark is protectorate, but Belgium, Netherlands, and Norway are unclear.
 

bguy

Donor
While Japan might not strike, if the Dutch East Indies had been restored to a German-allied Netherlands (which could allow in theory the Japanese to get access to the oil reserves of the area) and the British could perhaps agree to supply them with materials, Britain would have to deal with enough problems to keep its government preoccupied;

Halifax favored a harder line against Japan than Churchill did, so as long as he is the PM I don't see the British making any concessions to the Japanese. (Though with the war over I don't know how long the Tories can hold off on having a general election, and when that happens they are going to get crushed.)
 

RuneGloves

Banned
a8755f6c0374fa9286d06bc0d803ee9aa3d6e31c.jpg

Good representation of the borders.
 

Garrison

Donor
Hi again. So, I was thinking about a "plausible" scenario of a German victory in the Second World War. So one of the premises is that Churchill dies and the order for the BEF to withdraw comes a week or so later than OTL, which means that the Germans are able to cut off and capture the majority of the force before it is able to be evacuated. Lord Halifax comes to power in the UK and starts to explore the possibility of a treaty with Germany; ITTL, the Italian diplomatic establishment, fearful that if Britain was conquered or subjugated by the Reich, Germany's position in Europe would be too powerful, dramatically reducing Italy's freedom of action, manages to convince Mussolini to play the role of the peace broker as he had done in Munich in 1938.
And none of this makes much sense. First it falls into the myth that Churchill was somehow a lone voice keeping Britain in the war by force of personality. Second even his death would not have delayed Operation Dynamo. Third it assumes that Halifax would simply be able to take whatever terms were on offer, when in fact Parliament supported Churchill precisely because of his commitment to fight. Fourth you overestimate Mussolini's influence on Munich, and fifth Hitler had no coherent peace terms to offer and what you've proposed is pretty much unacceptable to both sides. I'm afraid that if you are looking for a plausible Nazi victory scenario you should keep on looking because IMO no one has found one despite years of trying on this board.
 
What system is Germany likely to use for occupied western territory?
Vichy France is already in their sway naturally, Denmark is protectorate, but Belgium, Netherlands, and Norway are unclear.
Interesting question. I think Belgium would be given the Vichy France treatment and be made a client state; Norway had already been made an RK in 1940 and there weren't really many reasons not to keep it that way. The problem would probably the Netherlands; IOTL, iirc, Hitler wasn't prepared to place the country under direct German administration, exactly due to fears for the fate of its colonial holdings; IOTL, Seyss - Inquart was appointed on 29 May 1940, so by the time of the peace treaty, the Reichskommissariat would have been in place for almost a month. This would create trouble inside Germany, since the Foreign Ministry would naturally argue in favour of restoration, in order for Germany to have access (via the new Dutch government) to the East Indies, while the Party wouldn't want to lose the Netherlands from its sphere of influence, for various reasons.
 
And none of this makes much sense. First it falls into the myth that Churchill was somehow a lone voice keeping Britain in the war by force of personality. Second even his death would not have delayed Operation Dynamo. Third it assumes that Halifax would simply be able to take whatever terms were on offer, when in fact Parliament supported Churchill precisely because of his commitment to fight. Fourth you overestimate Mussolini's influence on Munich, and fifth Hitler had no coherent peace terms to offer and what you've proposed is pretty much unacceptable to both sides. I'm afraid that if you are looking for a plausible Nazi victory scenario you should keep on looking because IMO no one has found one despite years of trying on this board.
Thanks for the input.

As I said, I was thinking about a "plausible" scenario; I understand that it takes quite some bending of various factors to get such a result. I am asking about what would happen if such an event had happened.
 
It's rather insane, that the details of a German led peace would involve such minute harmless issues such as economic appropriation, compared to West's Morgenthau plan or ethni
Uhhhhhh

Ok so tell me, what were the Germans going to do in all that annexed territory?
 
Thanks for the input.

As I said, I was thinking about a "plausible" scenario; I understand that it takes quite some bending of various factors to get such a result. I am asking about what would happen if such an event had happened.
I think the biggest issue is why Britain would accept. Like Garrison said, Britain was willing to fight.
 

RuneGloves

Banned
Interesting question. I think Belgium would be given the Vichy France treatment and be made a client state; Norway had already been made an RK in 1940 and there weren't really many reasons not to keep it that way.
In regards to Norway, I think it was a mix of governments. Military, Reichkomissariat, co-opted Norwegian elites, and Quisling attempt?
The problem would probably the Netherlands; IOTL, iirc, Hitler wasn't prepared to place the country under direct German administration, exactly due to fears for the fate of its colonial holdings; IOTL, Seyss - Inquart was appointed on 29 May 1940, so by the time of the peace treaty, the Reichskommissariat would have been in place for almost a month. This would create trouble inside Germany, since the Foreign Ministry would naturally argue in favour of restoration, in order for Germany to have access (via the new Dutch government) to the East Indies, while the Party wouldn't want to lose the Netherlands from its sphere of influence, for various reasons.
Even if they did restore Netherlands, officially, would it be considered independent enough the British woulld allow the East Indies to be transferred? Would the Dutch in DEI accept that Amersterdam rule?
 
In regards to Norway, I think it was a mix of governments. Military, Reichkomissariat, co-opted Norwegian elites, and Quisling attempt?

Even if they did restore Netherlands, officially, would it be considered independent enough the British woulld allow the East Indies to be transferred? Would the Dutch in DEI accept that Amersterdam rule?
Well, at least by my understanding, the fact that the Dutch government decided to abandon the country was instrumental in keeping the colony in the war; if such a peace was signed, I think the situtation would be mixed. In Batavia, opinions would probably be divided between those who would argue that the colonial authorities would have to live with the new status quo in order to prevent any further erosion of their power in the area and those who would consider the treaty unacceptable and would try perhaps to break the East Indies away from the new government's control.

For its part, Britain would be in a sort of difficult position, since it would be in their interests to prevent the Germans from utilising the colony for economic and military purposes but at the same time, such a move wouldn't be exactly easy to justify. I guess they woud try to offer covert support and if the opponents of the pro-German government back home succeeded, they wouldn't take any action against them and perhaps continue supporting them in a disreet manner.
 

RuneGloves

Banned
Uhhhhhh

Ok so tell me, what were the Germans going to do in all that annexed territory?
In regards to the Western Allies which is what I am talking about,, (Britain, France, by extension Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway). I'll try to list all the demands.
Britain: Colonies back, potential reparations, economic/military disarmament, accepting new borders in Europe.
France: A-L, proposals for eastern france (not A-L), occupation, reparations, economic/military disarmament.
The rest: RK status or Denmark Protectorate status. Eupen-Malmedy. They were fine with North Schslewig. Occupation. Reparations. Military disarmament.
 
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And none of this makes much sense. First it falls into the myth that Churchill was somehow a lone voice keeping Britain in the war by force of personality. Second even his death would not have delayed Operation Dynamo. Third it assumes that Halifax would simply be able to take whatever terms were on offer, when in fact Parliament supported Churchill precisely because of his commitment to fight. Fourth you overestimate Mussolini's influence on Munich, and fifth Hitler had no coherent peace terms to offer and what you've proposed is pretty much unacceptable to both sides. I'm afraid that if you are looking for a plausible Nazi victory scenario you should keep on looking because IMO no one has found one despite years of trying on this board.
Ill bite on this one a bit, although I agree generally with what you are saying, I think for starters it takes at least Hitler being dead, AND the new German leader unwilling to risk all on Barbarossa, and the new leader (Goering??) willing to accept a peace that is more about restoring Germany's pre WW1 status (with Austria and Sudetenland in exchange for Germany's lost colonies).

So its summer/fall 41, Germans haven't invaded Barbarossa, Germans are pressing in the Med, sure logistics are difficult, but Malta and Tobruk might be starved out, war could go on for years. And the occupied regions might suffer hard if Germany's food supplies are tight.

British might convince themselves the Goering is someone they can deal with. And Goering is ok with settling, as long as he is the Klepto in charge of the Nazi Klepto state, he can live long and prosper.

Would the German population accept this?, yes, most populations want peace and a victory enough to make the costs worth while, and the costs weren't too much.
Would the German military accept this?, yes, as long as there is status and promotions and budget for the military going forward.

(This biggest risk is the British never really feel compelled to settle, figure the USA might come in eventually, so you might have to butterfly the Japan USA conflict as well, enough PODs and it becomes not plausible though regardless)
 
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