The Counterculture movement and its associated movements such as the New Left, Civil Rights, Pacifist ones are notable specially in the 1960's and early 70's, but what were the "causes" of it so that we can cause its delay, say by 5-10 years pushing it firmly to the 70's? What would be the effects of it as well? I presume it could be timed for chaos if it happened simultaneously with the Oil Crash (if it still happened)
AHC: Ways to delay the Counterculture Movement?
- Thread starter Zeca Urubu
- Start date
The causes were rather simple. It was the way history was taught. Children were taught in the fifties how ex post facto laws were one of the greatest violations of human rights. As the history books moved a few chapters forward, the Nuremberg Trials were justified. Wait a minute, were these not ex post facto laws? What the teachers did not teach then and do now, is that the Holocaust violated the Geneva Convention of 1924, and Germany was a member. So, they violated human rights laws. But since military command was involved, officers were just following orders, and the judgment was debatable. And that's how history is taught today.
From the standpoint of teenagers coming of age in the sixties, if German servicemen were supposed to say the Holocaust was wrong and leave (good luck telling Hitler to "take this job and shove it"), Americans should be able to refuse the draft because the Vietnam war did not defend the integrity of the country. And the result was the counterculture. Had history been taught differently, there would have been no counterculture.
From the standpoint of teenagers coming of age in the sixties, if German servicemen were supposed to say the Holocaust was wrong and leave (good luck telling Hitler to "take this job and shove it"), Americans should be able to refuse the draft because the Vietnam war did not defend the integrity of the country. And the result was the counterculture. Had history been taught differently, there would have been no counterculture.
So had there not been Vietnam (or other such wars) showing these contradictions there would be either no or a milder counterculture?
Yeah, I suspect just doing that minor tweak in bold tones down alot of the unrest of the 60s by removing the ex post facto laws. You''d see no change to civil rights-related stuff outside of the rhetoric being less revolutionary in nature, demanding fulfillment of the promises made after emancipation instead of nation of islam/other radical larping. Probably even more ah exercise of sexual freedom/shifts in attitudes among young people without protests to suck up the time. Vioetnam would get as much complaining from youth as Korea.
If you want one weird trick, Russell Marker is robbed and killed in Mexico in 1944, and his synthesis route for progesterone is not rediscovered for another decade or two.
Civil rights and counterculture are two different subjects. I see civil rights as a direct response to television programming. TV brought to homes daily display of the newest homes, furnishings and vehicles in advertisements, programs and game shows. They did it at the time postwar prosperity was beginning to show. The displays came without any minority participation, as people were segregated into poor neighborhoods. When Dr. Martin Luther King organized a bus boycott (after Rosa Parks), people watched and listened. When Dr. King gave his Dream Speech, it was recorded and distributed, as audio technology was rapidly improving. Television allowed Dr. King to accomplish in ten years what W.E.B. DuBois could not do in a lifetime.
Television also spread the appearance of music acts (Beatles haircuts) and eventually the hippie garb of the later part of the decade. Television would be difficult to delay further because it was already delayed by the Depression and war priorities.
Television also spread the appearance of music acts (Beatles haircuts) and eventually the hippie garb of the later part of the decade. Television would be difficult to delay further because it was already delayed by the Depression and war priorities.
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Actually not. Injectable estradiol for HRT could be derived from human or horse urine and was already being marketed in the 1930s. Progesterone, on the other hand, was astronomically expensive to refine: prior to Marker's synthesis route, birth control pills or shots would've cost the equivalent of $280 per day.
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Hofmann is killed in a bicycling accident while researching ergot compounds.
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I think a part you are missing is the fact that women worked factories during the war, women were just as smart as men (still are), minorites especially African Americans died and fought in 2 world wars and were treated like horse manure by an large.
Yes,each generations questions the last, and especially questions the ancient generation. But the counter culture was coming one way or the other. Korea and Vietnam I agree excelerated it's pace, as did rock-'n'-roll, birth control and other liberating things.
Hey females don't have to just sit and have children, blacks don't have to sit in the back of the bus ... we can all go to the same school. JFK, Johnson stood on these agendas.
Lsd is over rated as saying that was the counter culture.
There were large swaths of the world that were tired, tired of the man, tired of being second class, tired of being servants. I grew up in the 70s, and by 1980 much of the old guard was swept away into what we thought was a dust bin, turns out eh.. it just hid underground and rebranded
Nuremberg was justified, how or where is this questioned?! I don't know of an American history book that would say otherwise.
I think a part you are missing is the fact that women worked factories during the war, women were just as smart as men (still are), minorites especially African Americans died and fought in 2 world wars and were treated like horse manure by an large.
Yes,each generations questions the last, and especially questions the ancient generation. But the counter culture was coming one way or the other. Korea and Vietnam I agree excelerated it's pace, as did rock-'n'-roll, birth control and other liberating things.
Hey females don't have to just sit and have children, blacks don't have to sit in the back of the bus ... we can all go to the same school. JFK, Johnson stood on these agendas.
Lsd is over rated as saying that was the counter culture.
There were large swaths of the world that were tired, tired of the man, tired of being second class, tired of being servants. I grew up in the 70s, and by 1980 much of the old guard was swept away into what we thought was a dust bin, turns out eh.. it just hid underground and rebranded
Depends on your definition of counter culture though.
I cannot find fault with anything you point out but the place of women and the equal rights movement would have happened anyway and probably at the historic moment too.
The large use of drugs and particularly LSD had a massive impact on all the creatives and intellectuals to start with .Then as it's availability increased any one aspiring for a different vision or simply wanting to be hip did some...and it pretty much changed the way they thought and lived.If that does not happen then I think society as a whole does not shift as far or as deeply. Then if the cocaine feast doesn't kick off in the 70's you get another whole hedonistic shift that does not occur either.
Just visualize a present day USA simply reliant on good old tobacco and booze for it's jollies ...very different from where we are at currently.
I cannot find fault with anything you point out but the place of women and the equal rights movement would have happened anyway and probably at the historic moment too.
The large use of drugs and particularly LSD had a massive impact on all the creatives and intellectuals to start with .Then as it's availability increased any one aspiring for a different vision or simply wanting to be hip did some...and it pretty much changed the way they thought and lived.If that does not happen then I think society as a whole does not shift as far or as deeply. Then if the cocaine feast doesn't kick off in the 70's you get another whole hedonistic shift that does not occur either.
Just visualize a present day USA simply reliant on good old tobacco and booze for it's jollies ...very different from where we are at currently.
I never said Nuremberg was not justified. I say the fact that American history classes did not say why it was not ex post facto was actually a problem that led to the counterculture.
The number of people who used LSD was small and the media over-emphasized it. In fact, only 4% of the young adults in the late sixties even used marijuana. Drugs are exaggerated.
I still don't understand .. Nuremberg didn't have anything to do with counter culture .. no one .. cared if Nazi officials hanged or went to prison for crimes against humanity.
What really drove the counter culture was the post war boom...korea .. rock n roll.. people free of the depression, a youth spoiled by new toys and amazements.. unhindered by their parents issues.
then you have Vietnam and we are going to die in some crap hole.. and on top of that it's minorities ..
minorities are treated like crap . They want rights .. females want rights, they just did their gig for the government.
Nuremberg had nothing to do with the counter culture
distrust of government is long standing, but Jim crow brought that to the forefront along with Nixon.
most people liked Ike.. JFK has decent support, even Johnson had support, but was upset with his own failures and how things turned out that he chose to not run again.
ex post facto has nothing to do with this, that's been around forever.
counter culture was about building a real America.. and inclusive America, a more peaceful America .. an America that cared about it's own and prosperity shared.
Counter-culture had many dimensions, namely music, art, dress, and anti-war sentiment. As I remember it, war protests were the most vocal. When people demonstrated on campuses, they were against the Vietnam war. The fifties saw an "incomplete" teaching of Nuremberg and ex post facto that gave the young men the notion that they should be able to say no to military service if the integrity of the country was not at stake. With respect to war protests, they ended rather suddenly in 1973 when the draft ended and the war was winding down. It was as if the young generation was saying "thank you" and they went about living. Soon, fuel shortages and high inflation would bring in an era that didn't react much the counterculture that shaped the end of the sixties.
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Going to disagree on your take on Nuremberg. Germany was a defeated nation, the atrocities committed were beyond the pale. The Germans themselves changed laws post ex facto to give legal precedence to barbaric murder. They also broke every agreement ever made between Nazi Germany and the world as a whole.
No one liked the draft. After world war 2 the USA sized down. Scaled back up for Korea and the cold war, jumped into Vietnam. By Vietnam, noone understood why we were there, why were we fighting in jungles with no end in sight.
There was an end to Korea.
Anger at old ways that no longer made sense, the ultra conservatives, the church, the old staunch guard that didn't want to change.
The end of world war 2 created the following:
Women working, and contributing as well as men - after the war told to go back and play dolls and raise kids..
Minorities fighting again for a nation that treated them as second class - then after the war and sacrifice, treated like second class citizens
The war saw the begining of the end for empires - the British and French and Portuguese, dutch and Spanish empires.
These wars fought for independence drained many a nations youth. Toss in the Irish questions for fun. Many English lads were from industrial families, hardworking but not getting the recognition .
The soviets were rebuilding, going to space, first after first.. yet the west was ignoring them and talking double standards. Cuba for instance.
Now let's toss nukes on top of things , during this time frame it looked quite possible that we would just blow ourselves up. Great for moral huh....
The counter culture had nothing to do with Nuremberg sorry again. Its just no.
World war 2 put the nail on the old ways ...with Korea, the cold war and Vietnam finally castrating it and leaving it in the dust.
People didn't want to return to 1938
Australia's 60s was the 70s. US counter-cultures as subcultures existed in the 50s, the 40s, the 30s…
The idea that the late 60s US counter-cultures were homogeneous was a media description and then a mass idea in non-counter-cultures; and, so later a mass historical interpretation derived from mass culture of the day.
So media reports on diverse cultural movements less, and doesn't homogenise them until 1/1/1970.
yours,
Sam R.
The idea that the late 60s US counter-cultures were homogeneous was a media description and then a mass idea in non-counter-cultures; and, so later a mass historical interpretation derived from mass culture of the day.
So media reports on diverse cultural movements less, and doesn't homogenise them until 1/1/1970.
yours,
Sam R.
Amen
The 30s and 20s had speak easies ... jazz and blues clubs .. the mythical evil weed ... post fact laws have nothing to do with this.. times change ... the linger it takes change the more taught the rubber and becomes ... then finally it just gives as pressure for changes build.
I will stick with my opinion Nuremberg has nothing to do with counter culture except the old guard that didnt want to be held accountable for the horrific crap done and the authoritarian culture of imperialism. This became a time when the truth gets told by the late 80s of how the good old days weren't so good unless you were an empowered land owner.