AHC: Warrior Class in China?
- Thread starter XFE
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Emphasize the martial arts and swordsmanship aspect of the curriculum for scholar-bureaucrats. Establish myths of warrior-sage philosophers who fought alongside the generals and emperors they advised, spread popular wuxia stories of wandering scholars who fought bandits.
The scholar-gentry were the elite class of China, so they're the first place you look at. Alternatively, maybe have the pre-Qin aristocracies somehow survive as a military class despite the advent of Confucianism that replaced their power with centralized emperors + the bureaucracy they commanded? Not that here probably weren't military families with legacy and influence, they were just ad hoc groups instead of formal institutions.
The scholar-gentry were the elite class of China, so they're the first place you look at. Alternatively, maybe have the pre-Qin aristocracies somehow survive as a military class despite the advent of Confucianism that replaced their power with centralized emperors + the bureaucracy they commanded? Not that here probably weren't military families with legacy and influence, they were just ad hoc groups instead of formal institutions.
You could substantially improve the success of Hinduism in China (Medieval Krishna worship seems like it could fit right in with China), have said Hindu population produce a major Chinese dynasty which marries a dharmic concept of Tian with Confucian ethics could produce a caste. That is a LOT of ifs though.
Unless Confucius wanted to get himself torn apart by five wild horses,he will stay well away from rumors of him ever having slain any dragons.Dragons more or less represents the ruler.I'm not sure i remember stories of confucius slaying a dragon
Read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_occupations#shi
China needs a crisis in which the imperial court relies more and more on the army for solving it.
PhilippeO
Banned
depending on your definition, China already had 'warrior class'.
in 2century AD, Cao Cao recruited ex-yellow turban and nomads from North China, this people registered in military village who had lower tax obligation and had to send soldier for armies. for Sun Quan, Northern migrant and Yue tribesmen become military village. This system become widespread until Tang dynasty.
at 8century with An Lu SHan rebellion, inhabitant of northern frontier become de facto hereditary military colonist, at Tang dynasty end, military commandery supported by hereditary soldier had become widespread to all China.
Ming dynasty also always maintain separate registry of civilian village and military village.
main problem for 'warrior class' is China is really really peaceful. During Qing dynasty, after conquest completed, Eight Banner and Green Standard quickly degrade. If you put soldier, and he never fought for 50 year, the 'warrior' on warrior class become questionable. Successful Empire Han, Tang, Sung, Ming, Qing could have provinces who never have battle for 100 year or more. Samurai in Japan rose because of anarchy in Japan, during Tokugawa, despite they claim, they more bureaucrat rather than warrior. Knight also arise after Rome collapse.
in 2century AD, Cao Cao recruited ex-yellow turban and nomads from North China, this people registered in military village who had lower tax obligation and had to send soldier for armies. for Sun Quan, Northern migrant and Yue tribesmen become military village. This system become widespread until Tang dynasty.
at 8century with An Lu SHan rebellion, inhabitant of northern frontier become de facto hereditary military colonist, at Tang dynasty end, military commandery supported by hereditary soldier had become widespread to all China.
Ming dynasty also always maintain separate registry of civilian village and military village.
main problem for 'warrior class' is China is really really peaceful. During Qing dynasty, after conquest completed, Eight Banner and Green Standard quickly degrade. If you put soldier, and he never fought for 50 year, the 'warrior' on warrior class become questionable. Successful Empire Han, Tang, Sung, Ming, Qing could have provinces who never have battle for 100 year or more. Samurai in Japan rose because of anarchy in Japan, during Tokugawa, despite they claim, they more bureaucrat rather than warrior. Knight also arise after Rome collapse.
The Mongols did conquer China.Nomads have repeatedly set up empires in Northern China,and they have succeeded twice in conquering the entirety of China.Indeed one must note that the Tang Dynasty's martial prowess was due to the influence of these nomadic empires(the Li family who ruled the Tang Dynasty were of Xianbei descent,much like a lot of the Guanzhong nobility).
This
Imperial China only experienced conflict either during dynastic transitions, and peasant rebellions. After that it's a period of peace that makes the military virtually irrelevant, and thus uninfluential.
As for the northern nomads, yes it's possible to create a warrior class out of them. But they wouldn't be a samurai analogue but rather a Cossack one.
This is an oversimplification of things.The problem isn't so much as the military is virtually irrelevant,even in the Song Dynasty and the Ming Dynasty(which were regarded as less militaristic and from which people somehow get the idea that China's generally pacifist),there were nomads that constantly threatened the borders.The answer is that after the turbulent period following the Anshi Rebellion where soldiers came to power,dynasties following Tang decided it's not worthwhile to have a politically powerful military force and tried to diminish the status of soldiers in order to prevent any military takeover of the state.
Pesigalam
Banned
Do you count Tibet as part of (historical) China? Because the Tibetan dob-dobs seem to be akin to the Teutonic Order and whatnot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Army
The Dalai Lama proceeded to raise a professional army, led by his trusted advisor Tsarong, to counter "the internal threats to his government as well as the external ones".[1][2]
The internal threats were mainly officials of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism, who feared British Christian and secular influence in the army, and who fought the defunding and taxing of the monasteries to feed military expenditures.[2] The monasteries had populations rivaling Tibet's largest cities, and had their own armies of dob-dobs ("warrior monks"). As a result, those monks who feared modernisation (associated with Britain) turned to China, which being the residence of the 9th Panchen Lama, portrayed itself as ally to the Tibetan conservatives.[3] Residents evacuated the city during the Monlam Prayer Festival and Butter Lamp Festival of 1921, fearing violent confrontation between the monks and the Tibetan Army, which was eventually barred from Lhasa to keep the peace.[4]
http://mikeldunham.blogs.com/photos/from_buddhas_warriors_tar/bwdobdobs.html
Dob-dobs: the Khampa monks who traditionally acted as security forces for monasteries in Tibet. Khampas like these acted as personal guards for the successive Dalai Lamas. (National Geographic Society).
Dob-dobs... well thats a name...Do you count Tibet as part of (historical) China? Because the Tibetan dob-dobs seem to be akin to the Teutonic Order and whatnot:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Army
The Dalai Lama proceeded to raise a professional army, led by his trusted advisor Tsarong, to counter "the internal threats to his government as well as the external ones".[1][2]
The internal threats were mainly officials of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism, who feared British Christian and secular influence in the army, and who fought the defunding and taxing of the monasteries to feed military expenditures.[2] The monasteries had populations rivaling Tibet's largest cities, and had their own armies of dob-dobs ("warrior monks"). As a result, those monks who feared modernisation (associated with Britain) turned to China, which being the residence of the 9th Panchen Lama, portrayed itself as ally to the Tibetan conservatives.[3] Residents evacuated the city during the Monlam Prayer Festival and Butter Lamp Festival of 1921, fearing violent confrontation between the monks and the Tibetan Army, which was eventually barred from Lhasa to keep the peace.[4]
http://mikeldunham.blogs.com/photos/from_buddhas_warriors_tar/bwdobdobs.html
Dob-dobs: the Khampa monks who traditionally acted as security forces for monasteries in Tibet. Khampas like these acted as personal guards for the successive Dalai Lamas. (National Geographic Society).
Despite my political views on the definition of Chinese civilization--the five races, (pls don't erupt into a flame war) I honestly cant find any justification that Tibet is part of ancient China. However Tibet is isolated from China, and due to cultural and religious differences between Chinese and Tibetian Buddhism, Dob dobs couldn't possibly have spread throughout China.
Minty_Fresh
Banned
I think it would have to be a distinct foreign ethnic group that somehow gets semi-Sinicized and encouraged to form a warrior society similar to the Varangians in the ERE or the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire.
Chinese Confucianism is always going to mean that the social superiority of the scholar-bureaucrat class discourages military classes from developing. So it would have to be a warrior class IN China, rather than a Chinese Warrior Class.
Now if we butterfly away Confucianism and its social order, than anything is possible.
Chinese Confucianism is always going to mean that the social superiority of the scholar-bureaucrat class discourages military classes from developing. So it would have to be a warrior class IN China, rather than a Chinese Warrior Class.
Now if we butterfly away Confucianism and its social order, than anything is possible.