AHC: Turkey joins the Axis in/by 1940
- Thread starter Wesley_Lewt
- Start date
thaddeus
Donor
if the Germans had not through their actions brought the Allied (British) forces right up to the Turkish southern border but kept Syria-Lebanon in Vichy control? they would have been able to magnify your speculative scenario, send German LW to the air bases constructed for Operation Pike in Syria?
they could reward the Turks with Adjara (Batumi) terminal? they could receive a share of the oil passing through there?
they just need to be friendly enough
Turkes was still 24 years old in 1941. Brand new 2nd lieutenants do not set policy...
On all questions of logistics I defer to the superior expertise of
In your opinion are their any pre-1936 POD's which could have led to an Axis Turkey?
सार्थक (Sārthākā)
In your opinion are their any pre-1936 POD's which could have led to an Axis Turkey?
Turkish railroad capacity going east was about 3,000t a day. Call it ~200 tons for the Turkish division slice of roughly 27,000 men in 1940, IMS the German one was 250t but the Turkish divisions have way less artillery.
Though with that said I wouldn't be optimistic about the Turkish logistics being able to handle both the Turks and any other foreign assistance.
thaddeus
Donor
the point made earlier that the presence of Turkish forces of some fair amount would tie down 150,000 (or more) Soviet troops? frankly that is the ideal scenario from the Axis perspective?
my own fixation at the moment is a paper on Black Sea Campaign WWII https://www.jstor.org/stable/44641609?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
some improvement in Axis naval strategy and the entry of Turkey would have transformed their prospects.
The Transcaucasus Military district in June 22nd, 1941 had 246,000 men, 1417 guns and 877 tanks on hand. In addition to 979 aircraft. To this can be added added some from the Turkestan Military district used in the invasion of Iran. Of these 45th army stayed on the Turkish frontier for the duration.
A single battlecruiser, 4 destroyers and a few submarines... while the whole southern Turkish coast is open to the tender mercies of the Royal Navy.
I'm not saying they would, I'm saying if they did Germany might have won Fall Blau and Stalingrad. Or at least had enough oil to hold on for longer.
thaddeus
Donor
sorry if my posting was unclear, I did not intend any Turkish naval action(s), my speculation would be that a somewhat larger German naval force would have improved their prospects on the Black Sea.
after the Germans captured Crimea, even a minimal amount of basing in Turkey would have allow the KM to better strike the Soviet fleet, which had relocated to secondary bases at Poti and Batumi (with no or little repair capability)
not sure the coast of Turkey a priority for the RN at this point in the war
David Flin
Gone Fishin'
If Turkey comes into the war on the Axis side, it promptly becomes an enemy of those opposing the Axis, by definition. Given that the RN has a strong naval presence in the Eastern Med, and the Axis powers don't, that makes Turkey a prime target for operations by the RN.
As always in these "Country X joins the Axis to help Nazi Germany" scenarios, one is hard pushed to find any upside for Country X.
or the allies do someting really stupid. e.g. Operation Pike and turkey is forced to pick sides.
thaddeus
Donor
the British attempted raid on one of the Dodecanese islands had to be abandoned and they never attempted any actions on occupied Greece? (IIRC?) they are going to sail past both to attack the Turkish coast? what type of operations are you speculating on?
If Turkey joins the Axis in 1940, the Germans have not occupied Greece and Crete yet.
Alparslan was a turkish idealist/pan-turkist but he respected Ataturk's ideas and plans. I think that He would also wants to stay neutrall but even if they decided, I think they would have tried to regain the Misak-ı Millî borders.
I think that it would have ended like Finland's Continuation war. But keeping Hatay, Kars and Ardahan would be more difficult if they lost the war just like germans.
oh also about turkish army, It was just like one of those in balkan countries such as Romania Yugoslavia, Using old German Mausers, some Czechoslovakian equipment, poor tanks from France or Ussr before the war etc. But Turkey had an adventage with her terrain. after Marmara reigon, harsh moutainous terrain starts which can slow down suppily lines just like in Greco-Turkish War
I agree with the others who have written that Turkey wouldn't join the Axis.
Having made that clear...
If Mussolini still invades Greece at the end of October 1940 (and I think it's very likely that he will) the Greeks will be fighting a two-front war ITTL because they'll also be fighting the Turks. Will the Italians and Turks be able to defeat the Greeks before the end of March 1941? That is before Hitler intervened.
The British Empire & Commonwealth (BEC) forces in the Mediterranean and Middle East were spread rather thinly. I think Operation Compass won't happen ITTL and the invasion of Italian East Africa will be delayed because some the forces used for those campaigns IOTL will be sent to Iraq and Palestine to counter the threat from Turkey ITTL.
Therefore, I think the main beneficiary of Turkey joining the war in 1940 on the side of the Axis would be Italy because they don't loose Cyrenaica at the end of 1940, their forces in East Africa hold out for longer and they might do better against the Greeks.
However, I repeat, I agree with the others who have written that Turkey wouldn't join the Axis.
Having made that clear...
If Mussolini still invades Greece at the end of October 1940 (and I think it's very likely that he will) the Greeks will be fighting a two-front war ITTL because they'll also be fighting the Turks. Will the Italians and Turks be able to defeat the Greeks before the end of March 1941? That is before Hitler intervened.
The British Empire & Commonwealth (BEC) forces in the Mediterranean and Middle East were spread rather thinly. I think Operation Compass won't happen ITTL and the invasion of Italian East Africa will be delayed because some the forces used for those campaigns IOTL will be sent to Iraq and Palestine to counter the threat from Turkey ITTL.
Therefore, I think the main beneficiary of Turkey joining the war in 1940 on the side of the Axis would be Italy because they don't loose Cyrenaica at the end of 1940, their forces in East Africa hold out for longer and they might do better against the Greeks.
However, I repeat, I agree with the others who have written that Turkey wouldn't join the Axis.
What would Yugoslavia do if Turkey joined the Axis in 1940? Would the coup that precipitated the German invasion still happen? My guess is that it wouldn't and the country would have become a reluctant member of the Axis and played as little part in the war as possible.