AHC: Tudor Wales, Plantagenet England
- Thread starter RedKing
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- england plantagenets tudors wales
You could have at best a Tudor leading a Welsh revolt for independence. Post 1400 is probably too late for any sort of independent Wales short of balkanization.
But there's the possibility that Glyndwr succeeds and eventually a Tudor takes the reins, I suppose, but I have a hard time imagining England surviving as a unified entity atl.
But there's the possibility that Glyndwr succeeds and eventually a Tudor takes the reins, I suppose, but I have a hard time imagining England surviving as a unified entity atl.
I wouldn't say it would be too late, Glyndwr almost succeeded IIRC, and there is a movement for Welsh independence today.
I think that would be the easiest way to make it happen. England would definitely have an uphill battle, but could survive it, they stuck together during the Wars of the Roses, and a successful Glyndwr couldn't be much worse than that.
Perhaps during the War of the Roses, the two factions realise it's a bit of a zero sum game, York arguably holds power for longer and Lancaster eventually agrees to divide the spoils and take Wales as a consolation prize of sorts.
Henry VII takes Wales, with a different wife, and the Yorkist claimant keeps England.
Who claims Ireland is another question altogether.
Henry VII takes Wales, with a different wife, and the Yorkist claimant keeps England.
Who claims Ireland is another question altogether.
That could work, the Lancastrians are given Wales, and Tudor becomes King for whatever reason.
Probably goes to Wales or becomes independent
Glyndwr's struggle is heroic (and it is a bit surprising he isn't a more well-known figure today), but much of his success can be contributed to a confluence of events that it's hard to imagine happening again -- the English squeezed the Welsh for everything they had in the aftermath of the Black Death, creating a powder keg of grievances and resentment. A number of marcher lordships improbably all fell to minorities at around the same time, drastically weakening English regional power. Parliament refused to grant taxation to raise an army to deal with the growing rebellion. Disagreements between the king and his governor for the region (Hotspur) boiled over for mostly unrelated reasons, leading to said governor's own rebellion. The French court had been taken over by the warlike Orléans, who provided significant aid to Glyndwr, and a pirates war between England and Brittany kept the English navy from isolating the country the way Edward I had during his conquest. In the end, the Welsh never won a major battle and the French abandoned them when they realized the Welsh had no change of long term success.
I’m not sure there could be an enduring Tudor/Plantagenet split. If somehow the Tripartite Indenture came about and then a Tudor took the reins from Glyndwr, it might give Wales a chance for some nation building during the 15th century.
I have a feeling that the two Englands would reunite at some point. What would happen to the Tudor alt Wales then?
I have a feeling that the two Englands would reunite at some point. What would happen to the Tudor alt Wales then?
I feel like this is the best way to make this happen. Have Glyndwr and friends succeed, then have England reunite under a Plantagenet, and eventually have the Tudors become the Kings of Wales.
Depends, if the Englands reunite via war, they'll need time to recover. The longer Wales is independent the more united and centralised it becomes. So maybe it allies with France and becomes another Scotland?
Is there any way that a Tudor ITTL could eventually take the throne of a reunited England - via a James I style route rather than an alt Bosworth?
In that scenario, you’d have OTL Welsh claims on the Tudors being a smidge more than the faintly ludicrous wishful thinking ITTL. Maybe even the Venetian ambassador Trevisan’s observation after Bosworth IOTL might actually ring true: “They may now be said to have recovered their former independence, for the most wise and fortunate Henry VII is a Welshman”.
Even if by some chance the Tudors ended up as the rulers of Wales, they would end being an Eastern Scotland (or Ireland) for the Plantagenets.
That's a good point. It the Welsh Tudors did become the Kings of England there would be a lot more revolts against them. At least with James he was Protestant, so instantly better than most alternatives. Here, the Reformation in England is probably butterflied so, they might overthrow them here.
But wouldn't an Eastern Scotland mean it survives?
Well, Scotland was independent, and the one to unite England and Scotland, and it has a strong independence movement today so... successful Tudor Wales?
I've missed the part where Scotland rules England with the Stuarts and remained independent.
Probably, Owen's Fathers fought with Glyndwr and would likely be made nobles for their service. Glyndwr's sons don't have to die though, just have Wales adopt an elective monarchy, with electing Tudors becoming a tradition like with the Habsburgs in the Holy Roman Empire.
Well, technically the first bit happened, but I see your point.