Lusitania

Donor
We could cheat a bit with a strong Dutch Portuguese alliance.
Say there is no union of crowns but still a Dutch rebellion. A good way for the Dutch to screw with Spain would be to support Portuguese colonialism.
For example there is a VoC with some of the shares going to the Estado da India, or the reverse with big Dutch investment in a more open Estado, they wouldn't have to spend that much money trying to fight the Portuguese in the East and West, and you'd get Dutch colonists there too.
Portugal did after all have massive ties with Antwerp, before all the Antwerpian merchants went up North after the sacking
It could but Portugal has to avoid the expulsion of Jews. This reduces Portuguese - Dutch relationship since was mostly though Portuguese Jews connection.

if no Iberian Union no Dutch-Portuguese war (possible working together in Indian Ocean)
 
It could but Portugal has to avoid the expulsion of Jews. This reduces Portuguese - Dutch relationship since was mostly though Portuguese Jews connection.

if no Iberian Union no Dutch-Portuguese war (possible working together in Indian Ocean)
The first expulsion was in 1494 I think, dunno about a second one? I know the first one was kinda due to Spanish diplomatic pressure, so no union might cancel the second one?
Antwerp was such a massive part of Portuguese economy I can't see them shooting themselves that bad
 

Lusitania

Donor
The first expulsion was in 1494 I think, dunno about a second one? I know the first one was kinda due to Spanish diplomatic pressure, so no union might cancel the second one?
Antwerp was such a massive part of Portuguese economy I can't see them shooting themselves that bad
Yes the Dutch independence is hard to stop and without expulsion there still be some connection and I could see VOC being hobbled by Dutch investment in Portuguese India so you could see an amicable competition and Dutch benefiting from close relationship. The looser would be the English who without Portuguese weakness be hard pressed to challenge both Portuguese and Dutch presence. If the Portuguese avoid Bay of Bengal that could be the scene of Dutch-English rivalry.
 
Not really. Tordesillas was never ditched at all (not until the Treaty of Madrid in 1750)
In fact Utrecht (1715), but I didn't mean ditch in the sense of declaring it null and void officially, but instead that it lost its importance as the Spanish started to share settlements with the Portuguese, for example in Buenos Aires where something like 20% of the population was Portuguese, and trade around the River Plate was dominated by the Portuguese.

and the expansion of Brazil beyond the Tordesillas line started before the Iberian union and continued after.
No it didn't, the Portuguese advance into the Amazon started in 1616 with the foundation of Feliz Lusitania (Belem do Pará) and the construction of the Fort of Presépio, obeying orders of the king to populate the region and protect it from foreign incursions.

At the south the Portuguese expansion started in 1627 when Raposo Tavares destroyed the villages of the Gobernacion of Guayra on the area where today is the state of Paraná, and the first settlement in Santa Catarina was São Francisco do Sul founded in 1640 .
 
Yes the Dutch independence is hard to stop and without expulsion there still be some connection and I could see VOC being hobbled by Dutch investment in Portuguese India so you could see an amicable competition and Dutch benefiting from close relationship. The looser would be the English who without Portuguese weakness be hard pressed to challenge both Portuguese and Dutch presence. If the Portuguese avoid Bay of Bengal that could be the scene of Dutch-English rivalry.
I can't be bothered to check but I think I remember the carreira system was very open to private bidding by that time. So you could have a VoC within the Estado, kinda like some groups buy Mcdonald franchises en masse.

The Portuguese could even reactivate the 1475 system with rights of exploration and exploitation against a yearly tribute.

I'm not sure you could integrate much more than that due to the religious differences with the Dutch but not an expert on that
 
In fact Utrecht (1715), but I didn't mean ditch in the sense of declaring it null and void officially, but instead that it lost its importance as the Spanish started to share settlements with the Portuguese, for example in Buenos Aires where something like 20% of the population was Portuguese, and trade around the River Plate was dominated by the Portuguese.


No it didn't, the Portuguese advance into the Amazon started in 1616 with the foundation of Feliz Lusitania (Belem do Pará) and the construction of the Fort of Presépio, obeying orders of the king to populate the region and protect it from foreign incursions.

At the south the Portuguese expansion started in 1627 when Raposo Tavares destroyed the villages of the Gobernacion of Guayra on the area where today is the state of Paraná, and the first settlement in Santa Catarina was São Francisco do Sul founded in 1640 .

I suppose it depends a little bit on perspective. São Paulo is beyond the Tordesillas line (I believe....) and was founded before the Iberian Union.

I don't know if "sharing settlements" is quite the right word. It's true that the Iberian union significantly increased the movement of people to colonies of the other country (at least where they were allowed, I don't believe there were lots of Portuguese people in Mexico or Spanish people in India, for example, but I digress), but the empires remained very administratively separate and I believe it was very clear which cities belonged to the council of Portugal. But anyway, I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem to me that Brazil's southern expansion was driven by Portuguese people moving into Spanish settlements for trade and eventually overwhelming the Spanish population. Rather, it was driven by people leaving Portuguese settlements in organized migrant groups and forming new settlements beyond the Tordesillas line.

I believe that this would most likely have happened with or without the Iberian Union as it was the result of Brazil's natural population increase. Now, would the Spanish have put an end to it without the Iberian Union? I honestly doubt it. They had a lot on their plate in the 17th century, and considering that they don't know about the gold yet, I don't think that Brazil would rank very high in their list of priorities.
 
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I added more based on suggestions. Yemen and Zanzibar to mess with the ottomans and dominate the indian ocean, west India based on the concentration of Portuguese bases in the Surat region, and west Africa for the slave trade
 
Idont know if its possible , portugal as such a small population
The “small population” argument for implausibility (for any PoD, but I’ve noticed they come up especially on ones involving Portugal, the Netherlands, and Ireland) shouldn’t be as popular as it is on these forums. As far as I can tell, it comes from a nineteenth-century historiography, based in real nineteenth-century material concerns, that actually have very little to do with the preceding centuries. It’s only when you have coordinated heavy industry that sheer population starts to matter that much; social stratification, technical skills, and concentrated ambitions matter a lot more in the seventeenth century, let alone the fifteenth.

Having a Portuguese Empire like this is definitely plausible if you just extend their Golden Age by another century or so - which, on the path of least resistance, involves screwing another small, highly-educated and motivated naval power: the Netherlands.
 
Having a Portuguese Empire like this is definitely plausible if you just extend their Golden Age by another century or so - which, on the path of least resistance, involves screwing another small, highly-educated and motivated naval power: the Netherlands.
Would having them go to austria (as in the whole shebang not just Belgium) early be sufficient since austria would probably have an easier time getting men and supplies over in the event of a Dutch revolt? Or is it literally as simple as "spain fights better?"
 

Lusitania

Donor
Would having them go to austria (as in the whole shebang not just Belgium) early be sufficient since austria would probably have an easier time getting men and supplies over in the event of a Dutch revolt? Or is it literally as simple as "spain fights better?"
I read that Dutch were reliant on Norwegian sailors for a huge portion of their seaman. Either Austria or Spain trying to control Netherlands, occupying them and at war with them be best in terms of Portugal.

now if Spain was the oppressor (Iberian Union existed) then you could have Dutch investing in Portugal since Portugal be an adversary of Spain.
 
The Portuguese gain Castilian resources like population for colonization.
from what's been expressed this isn't a matter of resources but where Portugal could afford to send them; ttl, due to spain and the Netherlands not being successful, they can afford to spend them overseas
 

Lusitania

Donor
The Portuguese gain Castilian resources like population for colonization.
The problem is that Castile population is bigger and they become yo dominate the country. No guarantee capital is Lisbon so in reality you have a Spain with Portugal and Castile which is not the what was talking about.
 
I suppose it depends a little bit on perspective. São Paulo is beyond the Tordesillas line (I believe....) and was founded before the Iberian Union.

It does depend on perpective, the Tordesillas line was placed at different meridians, carthography was not precise enough at the time and the treaty also wasn't enough, there would even be debates about what size of league should be used. Anyway, the Portuguese didn't consider São Paulo on the Spanish side, and most maps used today at least in Brazillian history books interpret the line somewhere between 48.5º and 49.5º. But many maps including Spanish maps like the map of Diego Ribeiro (1529) show the line at the mouth of the Plate River and west of Marajó Island.

I don't know if "sharing settlements" is quite the right word. It's true that the Iberian union significantly increased the movement of people to colonies of the other country (at least where they were allowed, I don't believe there were lots of Portuguese people in Mexico or Spanish people in India, for example, but I digress), but the empires remained very administratively separate and I believe it was very clear which cities belonged to the council of Portugal. But anyway, I'm not an expert,

They shared settlements in the sense that Portuguese people loyal to Portugal and Spanish people loyal to Spain were able to live at the same settlements and did so mainly where there was better opportunity like in Buenos Aires, a place that the Spanish Crown and the Castilians in Europe ignored most of the time.

but it doesn't seem to me that Brazil's southern expansion was driven by Portuguese people moving into Spanish settlements for trade and eventually overwhelming the Spanish population.

Yes, but that is obvious, I never said that the Portuguese overwhelmed the Spanish by demographic growth, on the contrary I said that the main events of the Portuguese expansion were the founding of Belem, the expedition against the missions in Guayra, and the settlement of Santa Catarina. What I mean is that before the Iberian Union there was a great deal of respect to the treaty that basically evaporated after the Iberian Union and to be honest, maybe even more important than that, after the Restoration War (1640-1668).

Rather, it was driven by people leaving Portuguese settlements in organized migrant groups and forming new settlements beyond the Tordesillas line.

I believe that this would most likely have happened with or without the Iberian Union as it was the result of Brazil's natural population increase. Now, would the Spanish have put an end to it without the Iberian Union? I honestly doubt it. They had a lot on their plate in the 17th century, and considering that they don't know about the gold yet, I don't think that Brazil would rank very high in their list of priorities.

It most probably wasn't populational pressure because populations started to shift to the interior only after gold was discovered in Minas Gerais and they stopped there until the 19th century, before the gold rush the frontiers were expanded by expeditions conducting slave and gold hunting, but if they had been settled because of populational pressure we should expect them to be followed by other settlements around it, but that didn't happen. For example Curitiba, it was built around 1649, but the region next to it (Ponta Grossa) remained almost empty for more than a century, the same in the Capitaincy/Province/State of São Paulo where the lands west of Bauru were left to the wilderness and the natives up to middle to late 19th century.
 
After 1570s Borneo is technically Castillan due to some of its claimants making a blood compact with the Spanish in the 1570s.
 
I've been reading this article regarding the sixteenth century military revolution and its effects within Portugal. Sorry about the article being in Portuguese, but I have little time to translate. It would seem that in addition to needing more people, a lot more would be needed for Portugal to get wanked. I mean the proper conditions for the creation of a modern, military force. Attitudes were very conservative, and the populace had little motivation to participate. The besteiros do conto weren't even paid!

Poor Cristóvão Leitão. He was close. He was there with that Spanish captain guy when the Tercios were created. He knew that pikes were crap and that guns were getting better. Portugal could have had its own unique form of fighting.
Sorry about the rant. But my point stands. Change legislations and attitudes and one might wank Portugal as seen here.
 
I've been reading this article regarding the sixteenth century military revolution and its effects within Portugal. Sorry about the article being in Portuguese, but I have little time to translate. It would seem that in addition to needing more people, a lot more would be needed for Portugal to get wanked. I mean the proper conditions for the creation of a modern, military force. Attitudes were very conservative, and the populace had little motivation to participate. The besteiros do conto weren't even paid!

Poor Cristóvão Leitão. He was close. He was there with that Spanish captain guy when the Tercios were created. He knew that pikes were crap and that guns were getting better. Portugal could have had its own unique form of fighting.
Sorry about the rant. But my point stands. Change legislations and attitudes and one might wank Portugal as seen here.
Nice article, it should be used in history classes in Portugal because sometimes we glorify to much the Descobertas period whitout a proper analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the kingdom, blaming the Iberian Union for all the troubles because Spain didn't care about our empire.
 
I've been reading this article regarding the sixteenth century military revolution and its effects within Portugal. Sorry about the article being in Portuguese, but I have little time to translate. It would seem that in addition to needing more people, a lot more would be needed for Portugal to get wanked. I mean the proper conditions for the creation of a modern, military force. Attitudes were very conservative, and the populace had little motivation to participate. The besteiros do conto weren't even paid!

Poor Cristóvão Leitão. He was close. He was there with that Spanish captain guy when the Tercios were created. He knew that pikes were crap and that guns were getting better. Portugal could have had its own unique form of fighting.
Sorry about the rant. But my point stands. Change legislations and attitudes and one might wank Portugal as seen here.
Nice article, it should be used in history classes in Portugal because sometimes we glorify to much the Descobertas period whitout a proper analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the kingdom, blaming the Iberian Union for all the troubles because Spain didn't care about our empire.
If you look at the conquests, it pretty much stopped with Albuquerque. By this point you have the forts on the African Coast, Manaccan and India.

You're only missing Macao and Ceylan. It peaked early and then kinda stagnated as, from reading Mendes Pinto, it seems they were too busy pissing off local rulers.

You can also see that lack of strength in the sluggish answers to Ottoman and Dutch aggressions.
The Portuguese Estado shined bright and then declined. The Portuguese people and traders however, had a lasting influence
 
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