AHC - Save the British Motorcycle Industry

[Masked Grizzly]

The challenge is to save the British Motorcycle Industry from its post-war decline and fall, so it at least remains a competitive player in the Motorcycle world.

From my limited understanding (need to acquire Bert Hopwood's and Steve Koerner's books on the subject), the common view is that the UK Motorcycle Industry's problems pretty much mirror the UK Car Industry's with bad management, subversive unions and lack of investment in new products / development and new production technologies. Yet could the UK Motorcycle Industry have survived by been encouraged to diversify into other related industries during the post-war period to better protect the industry in difficult times, such as via:

1) - War Reparations from either copying patents or possible asset-stripping of defeated nation's industries, to develop cars, improving existing motorcycles (somewhat similar to OTL), etc.

2) - A Light-Car equivalent of the 1944 Butler Act that anticipates a renewed interest in Microcars (then called Cyclecars) by a transport-starved public in the post-war period (while larger carmakers in OTL were made to focus on exports), which initially utilizes aluminum, fiberglass, etc largely avoiding the post-war steel rationing prior to quickly growing into the sub-Mini UK version of Japan's Kei Car class.

 

[pdf27]

W Edwards Deming comes to the UK rather than Japan?

 

[yulzari]

Invest in the latest tooling not wait until your Edwardian lathe is too worn out for even the best bodges to ameliorate.
Ditch Victorian sand casting for 20th century die casting.
Oil leaks are not a sign of manliness.
Beat Joe Lucas 'The Prince of Darkness' around the head until they can make reliable electrics and pay what it costs.
Understand that cheap motorcycles need more care and investment than the hairy chested big ones.
Understand that making motorcycles for the world is an industry not a craft.
Understand that the small components and ancillaries are more important than the grand design.

 

[Just Leo]

1) - War Reparations from either copying patents or possible asset-stripping of defeated nation's industries, to develop cars, improving existing motorcycles (somewhat similar to OTL), etc.

The DKW RT 125 became a war reparation, and it was built in the US, Britain, Poland and the Soviet Union, as well as East and West Germany. Even in Japan, Yamaha reverse engineered it and started in the motorcycle business to utilize some of their war-time tooling. BSA manufactured it for 23 years, and enlarged the capacity from the 125 Bantam to the 175 Bushman, without bothering to apply any significant engineering improvements. Cost over quality?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

The DKW RT 125 became a war reparation, and it was built in the US, Britain, Poland and the Soviet Union, as well as East and West Germany. Even in Japan, Yamaha reverse engineered it and started in the motorcycle business to utilize some of their war-time tooling. BSA manufactured it for 23 years, and enlarged the capacity from the 125 Bantam to the 175 Bushman, without bothering to apply any significant engineering improvements. Cost over quality?

Did partly have the DKW RT 125 aka BSA Bantam in mind though either BSA or another UK motorcycle company could have also diversified into post-war car production by acquiring the designs for the DKW F9 project (entering production in West Germany as the DKW F89/F91 later Auto Union 1000 and East Germany as the IFA F9 later the Wartburg 311), a car derived from the Volkswagen Beetle if not the Beetle itself or what eventually became the Lloyd 300 as war reparations.

That along with any other advanced motorcycle designs that could have benefited the UK Motorcycle Industry had they been shrewd enough.

The UK Light-Car class could have also allowed UK motorcycle manufacturers to diversify into that segment with their own post-war Microcars or act as engine suppliers for other budding Light-Car / Microcar manufacturers.

 

[GeneralBoomstick]

How popular was motorcycling in Britain? If there wasn't that large of a domestic demand then I am not surprised that it didn't survive because I'm not sure how well a British motorcycle company would be able to work it's way into other markets. I know that motorcycles were popular among GI's in the US, but our own companies were more than sufficient to meet demand and made some pretty good models.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

How popular was motorcycling in Britain? If there wasn't that large of a domestic demand then I am not surprised that it didn't survive because I'm not sure how well a British motorcycle company would be able to work it's way into other markets. I know that motorcycles were popular among GI's in the US, but our own companies were more than sufficient to meet demand and made some pretty good models.

Very popular given British Motorcycles retained a dominant position until the rise of Japanese motorcycle manufacturers in the late-60s early-70s onwards, Steve Koerner who wrote The Strange Death of the British Motorcycle Industry blames lack of a lightweight/small bike (e.g. Honda Super Cub) and segment retreat amongst other things along with the usual problems faced by other post-war British industries.

Have also heard elsewhere of British Motorcycle Manufacturers allegedly being overly focused on Cafe Racers and performance motorcycles instead of motorcycles such as the Honda Super Cub as an affordable means of transport, though not sure how true that is or how much much of an impact Cafe Racers contributed towards the collapse of the British Motorcycle Industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_racer

 

[Just Leo]

The motorcycle market has shown huge shifts and trends which are basically impossible to predict. Japanese little motorcycles created one of these shifts. British industry had created little bikes years before, and were happy about them, and remained happy as they became obsolete even as they were made. Italian scooters were another trend, and British industry reaction missed the mark. It has been said that Velocette died trying to meet that trend. Not all the competition that killed the British motorcycle industry has survived either, but if you have enough money, somebody will whip up a new Vincent for you. If one complains about the "Prince of Darkness", one should also mention Amal carbs.

 

[GeneralBoomstick]

Very popular given British Motorcycles retained a dominant position until the rise of Japanese motorcycle manufacturers in the late-60s early-70s onwards, Steve Koerner who wrote The Strange Death of the British Motorcycle Industry blames lack of a lightweight/small bike (e.g. Honda Super Cub) and segment retreat amongst other things along with the usual problems faced by other post-war British industries.

Have also heard elsewhere of British Motorcycle Manufacturers allegedly being overly focused on Cafe Racers and performance motorcycles instead of motorcycles such as the Honda Super Cub as an affordable means of transport, though not sure how true that is or how much much of an impact Cafe Racers contributed towards the collapse of the British Motorcycle Industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_racer

Those seemed to be pretty good models, maybe if they were just made to be more comfortable for longer rides it might be better. Though, if the industry collapsed along with a lot of other industries, then it might not be a problem with the industry itself, but rather an underlying problem with the economy/society at the time that wpuld need to be sorted to save them.

 

[Coiler]

2) - A Light-Car equivalent of the 1944 Butler Act that anticipates a renewed interest in Microcars (then called Cyclecars) by a transport-starved public in the post-war period (while larger carmakers in OTL were made to focus on exports), which initially utilizes aluminum, fiberglass, etc largely avoiding the post-war steel rationing prior to quickly growing into the sub-Mini UK version of Japan's Kei Car class.

I think that's a dead end. There'd be production issues, and historically, the continental mini-cars dropped dramatically in sales once the postwar funk ended. So focusing on microcars is at best setting themselves up for a fall around the same time as OTL, unless they can somehow climb up the ladder to regular cars, but even if that succeeds and avoids consolidation shenanigans, they wouldn't really be a motorcycle company anymore if cars are their primary business.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I think that's a dead end. There'd be production issues, and historically, the continental mini-cars dropped dramatically in sales once the postwar funk ended. So focusing on microcars is at best setting themselves up for a fall around the same time as OTL, unless they can somehow climb up the ladder to regular cars, but even if that succeeds and avoids consolidation shenanigans, they wouldn't really be a motorcycle company anymore if cars are their primary business.

Not if the Light-Cars could be driven on motorcycle licenses at minimum in a similar manner to 3-wheelers in OTL and come with tax benefits (e.g. lower purchase tax compared to regular cars, etc), though for classist reasons post-war 4-wheeled Microcars would likely feature a lot more limitations at the beginning compared to their 3-wheeler equivalents in terms of dimensions, weight, engine size and even seats.

The first lot would probably initially resemble something close to the 2-seater Vespa 400 or FMR Tg500 classed as essentially all-weather 4-wheeled light/small-motorcycles below a Reliant Regal or Bond 875 in terms of dimensions / seats / engine size, before growing into a typical up-engined 4-seater Kei Car as 3-wheelers grow increasingly out of favor for being unstable.

Such vehicles could also be utilized as a far safer 4-wheeled equivalent to the OTL 3-wheeler Invacar that was developed for disabled drivers or even spawn single-seater 4-wheelers like the Daihatsu Midget II, while Light-Cars below a certain engine size could be the UK version of France's VSP / Voiture Sans Permis that can be driven without a license by people over a certain age.

As the Japanese Kei Car class demonstrates there will always be demand if the laws are already in place and are fairly reasonable, which was not the case with the OTL UK's punitive and classist-motivated microcar regulations that made the 3-wheeled Reliant the low hanging fruit of jokes.

In the case of BSA they were already producing cars though it along with AMC (Associated Motor Cycles) and Norton seem to be best placed to take advantage of this proposed Light-Car class (along with other low-volume carmakers, etc), short of one or more British Soichiro Hondas appearing on the scene and starting a company from scratch.

It is one ATL option which may or may not actually be taken up by a few Motorcycle manufacturers, while one potential downside is that any new motorcycle / light-car manufacturers would likely be encouraged by the government to bring industries to regions with a high-rate of unemployment (see Hillman Imp with Linwood though likely not as catastrophic).

Invacar - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invacar
VSP - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35210572

 

[marathag]

The motorcycle market has shown huge shifts and trends which are basically impossible to predict. Japanese little motorcycles created one of these shifts. British industry had created little bikes years before, and were happy about them, and remained happy as they became obsolete even as they were made. Italian scooters were another trend, and British industry reaction missed the mark. It has been said that Velocette died trying to meet that trend. Not all the competition that killed the British motorcycle industry has survived either, but if you have enough money, somebody will whip up a new Vincent for you. If one complains about the "Prince of Darkness", one should also mention Amal carbs.

What sank the Brit bikes was that Honda make a bike that ran well in all weather, had a decent headlight, and you didn't have to fiddle with them. One kick start, and no puddle of oil left behind.
That they rode better was icing.
Then add in less cost.

Once they started making bigger bikes, the writing was on the wall.

I Liked Triumphs.
I like the one I helped by buddy by yanking out the electrics and replacing them with Japanese bits made driving in the night not an experiment in seeing if the Spark or the Light would go out first, a lot better

 

[Admiral Beez]

The challenge is to save the British Motorcycle Industry from its post-war decline and fall, so it at least remains a competitive player in the Motorcycle world.

Triumph today produces more motorcycles per year than Meriden ever did. Except for the lost decade of the 1980s, Triumph has remained a competitive player.

The Triumph Bonneville T140, produced until 1983, was popular and competitive (especially with 4 valve head and electric start), though the company of course failed due to lack of supply, quality control, innovation and money.

The Triumph Trident, launched in 1990 was competitive with Japanese bikes.

We just need to bridge these seven or eight years, and Triumph will have remained to meet the OP's goals.

 

[Just Leo]

What sank the Brit bikes was that Honda make a bike that ran well in all weather,

Funny thing, my first bike was a Suzuki 80, in 1965. It didn't like the rain because the bakelite plug cap shorted out. By the time I entered Enduro competition, I was a big fan of KLG/Lodge plug caps, made of rubber, lasting a couple years before the rubber went bad, and cheap.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How popular was motorcycling in Britain? If there wasn't that large of a domestic demand then I am not surprised that it didn't survive because I'm not sure how well a British motorcycle company would be able to work it's way into other markets. I know that motorcycles were popular among GI's in the US, but our own companies were more than sufficient to meet demand and made some pretty good models.

The rapid and sharp decline in motorcycle demand (both domestic and imported) in Britain in the late 1960s onwards, plus the GBP's high value killing export sales was a big part of the industry's collapse.

Edward Turner, upon returning from his trip to Japan had recommended to the BSA Board that Britain set up satellite production in Japan for that and other Asian markets. Roots and other British car makers already had license deals with factories in Japan.

 

[Just Leo]

Triumph today produces more motorcycles per year than Meriden ever did. Except for the lost decade of the 1980s, Triumph has remained a competitive player.

Is your Triumph working today?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

The rapid and sharp decline in motorcycle demand (both domestic and imported) in Britain in the late 1960s onwards, plus the GBP's high value killing export sales was a big part of the industry's collapse.

Edward Turner, upon returning from his trip to Japan had recommended to the BSA Board that Britain set up satellite production in Japan for that and other Asian markets. Roots and other British car makers already had license deals with factories in Japan.

Speaking of Edward Turner, have read of there being conflicts between him and Bert Hopwood with the latter throwing criticism at Turner based on reviews of his book Whatever Happened to the British Motorcycle Industry.

 

[Drunkrobot]

This is hardly the opinion of a qualified expert, but James May made a point about the rise of the Japanese bike industry in his Reassembler episode on a Honda monkey-bike, that some posters here seem to be making.

Basically, Honda noticed that the big western bike manufacturers, Harley-Davidson and Triumph and so on, focused on making bikes for 'bikers', which kept the market small, so they decided to then make a simple, cheap bike that could be rode in normal clothes and focus on riding in the city, a bike for waitresses to get to work and for delivery boys to make runs. And the western manufacturers looked at this and went 'Oh, I suppose those Japanese people will make some money on selling little budget bikes, but many of those people will want to upgrade after a while, and we'll make tons of money selling them bikes they actually want.' It didn't occur to them that Honda would then build bigger bikes of their own, and because they made so much money and built up so much expertise with the smaller bikes they would establish a lead on them.

He ended it by making two points, (1) Don't be rude about foreigners, and (2) The key to success in manufacturing isn't in making high-value toys for the rich, but in making well-designed, affordable products for the masses, that is how you will make money and expand your business beyond your starting niche.

So, yeah, a mass-market bike that can be used by normal people, aided by a good advertising campaign, can see a British company expand and capture the market. Maybe the same oil crisis that led to the Mini could serve as the kickoff for consumers looking for affordable modes of transport.

 

[GarethC]

Triumph today produces more motorcycles per year than Meriden ever did. Except for the lost decade of the 1980s, Triumph has remained a competitive player.

We just need to bridge these seven or eight years, and Triumph will have remained to meet the OP's goals.

Hang on, it's not that simple. Triumph was defunct in the 80s. The current firm is related to the pre1983 one in name only. Its former factory was bought in 1983 by Bloor Homes for new house construction. John Bloor, its boss, quite likes bikes, and bought the marque as well - then threw tens of millions of pounds at restarting the company.

Triumph needs a Bloor in some sense - an external party with the sort of funds and vision necessary to retool, redesign, and relaunch a competitive firm - but until NVT finally goes under, the existing management was never in a position to attract the necessary funding.

To fix British motorcycles, have someone acquire one of the marques earlier. BSA acquired Triumph in '51. Villiers acquired Norton and Matchless in 64, and BSA in 73 to become NVT - which went under in '77 and was taken over by a workers' cooperative.
Instead of having them all being rationalised into a single umbrella company to fail, have someone else do exactly what Bloor did with one of the brands - plough in a huge pile of cash to set up new production lines in a new site with up-to-date tooling and a business-minded workforce that understands that they have an uphill struggle against Japanese manufacturing and the British exchange rate to sell any product, no matter how good, in enough numbers not to go under.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Triumph needs a Bloor in some sense - an external party with the sort of funds and vision necessary to retool, redesign, and relaunch a competitive firm

A major difference with Bloor from the other acquisitions and mergers within the British motorcycle industry is that Triumph was bought with private money and continues to be owned by Bloor.

The larger British motorcycle firms (AMC, Noton, BSA, etc.) were all public companies, and investor relations at the time were to funnel all profits into dividends to the shareholders in order to maximise stock price. This meant that nothing was reinvested into innovation or quality. On the other hand, when we own the firm outright, like Bloor or Honda, you could reinvest profits into improving the company. The smaller companies, like Velocette and Royal Enfield remained private, but never had the scale to innovate (even today, Royal Enfield of India is only in recent years offering modern machines).

But really, if you were a 1960s Richard Branson, would you want to buy into AMC or BSA, or acquire one of their brands, such as Triumph, Norton or Matchless? Motorcycle sales are dropping, labour relations are a strike-infested disaster.

Not me, if I was Sir Richguy I would be buying Triumph cars https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...riumph-motorcar-company-not-the-bikes.370129/