AHC - Save the British Motorcycle Industry

The Sunbeam marque become a part of BSA from 1943, later producing the BMW-inspired Sunbeam S7/S8 motorcycles from 1949-1956 ditching a BMW-like Flat-Twin in favor of an Inline-twin OHC engine.
Until recently I'd always thought that the Sunbeam motorcycle firm was an early offshoot of the Sunbeam car company. But no, they were always totally separate enterprises.
 
Would settle for the ATL Motorcycle industry eventually consolidating into a Big Three or at most Big Five motorcycle manufacturers with a POD in the late-20s / early-30s, some operating in the present as independents and others either part of carmakers or foreign owned.
I think big three or five is too many. Germany has BMW, America has Harley-Davidson. Italy has one Piaggio, plus Audi-Ducati. Japan does have five, but that's unusual. Yes, you can have offshoots like Victory, Indian, MV Agusta (owned in part by AMG-Mercedes), and re-births of Norton, Ariel and Matchless. But for an economy like Britain's, I'd suggest one big motorcycle firm is about what you'll get.
 
I think big three or five is too many. Germany has BMW, America has Harley-Davidson. Italy has one Piaggio, plus Audi-Ducati. Japan does have five, but that's unusual. Yes, you can have offshoots like Victory, Indian, MV Agusta (owned in part by AMG-Mercedes), and re-births of Norton, Ariel and Matchless. But for an economy like Britain's, I'd suggest one big motorcycle firm is about what you'll get.

Ideally my ATL Big Three (not including lower-volume marques) would comprise of BSA (albeit with much better prescient management allowing it to remain independent and dominant), Triumph (somewhat similar to OTL and thriving under a successful Leyland Motors) and a foreign owned AMC (under either the Matchless, James or another marque).
 
Triumph today produces more bikes annually than the old Triumph ever did.

There is a quote on the web, by Triumph, that this year, Triumph sold over 54,000 units, the highest in 30 years. Figures confuse me because Triumph didn't have that good a year 30 years ago. Britain certainly produced more motorcycles 40 years ago, but there were many more marques. Do you have figures?
 
Japan does have five, but that's unusual.

And not all of them are successful. Suzuki's motorcycle division has consistently lost money recently, with its sole profitable year still being tiny (only 105 million yen, compared to the 179 billion their auto division raked in that same year)
 
And not all of them are successful. Suzuki's motorcycle division has consistently lost money recently, with its sole profitable year still being tiny (only 105 million yen, compared to the 179 billion their auto division raked in that same year)
I have a sense of deja vu as China is taking the small bike market with lower overheads and Japanese technology. Japan also suffers from an ageing population combined with an antipathy to young immigrant labour to take up the slack. Now, let me see; would there be another country with an ageing population who is now eschewing free immigration?............

More OT. The multi company old British motorcycle craft industry could never have met the needs of a modern global market establishing and servicing a worldwide presence. It could barely afford to invent in second hand machine tools. The big bike cream could have survived in the manner of BMW, Harley Davidson, Ducatti but that is a niche not a mass market. Worthwhile and achievable though.

To get it to hold it's head up in the small bike market one might be better looking not at the craft makers but at the component suppliers. Where might Villiers, JAP and similar have found the investment to market engine/gearbox units to the craft frame makers? Ditto for suspension, wheel and brake manufacturers (which latter did do so). Even panel makers and suppliers. The craft makers had some great ideas but, essentially they bought in the tricky bits and made a frame etc. to mount them on. Going back in time Brough Superior did that for the top end too.
 
Britain needs to prepare for the market's move from essential and inexpensive transport to the motorcycle as sport and lifestyle. That means focusing on attractive designs with power, comfort, ease of use and rock solid reliability. That means no vibrations or oil leaks, electric start and quality switch gear and electrics, good brakes, no leaky carbs, and lots of hp on lower compression long-life engines (900+ cc). It can be done. Like this four cylinder Douglas with front disc brake.

doublefly_pic-750.jpg


http://www.douglasmotorcycles.net/i...p2uikmd2otg31thh60&topic=2974.msg9284#msg9284
 
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One of the main reasons the British Motorcycle Industry collapsed was precisely because of the manufacturers were TOO focused on sports and lifestyle motorcycles at the expense of economical everyman lightweight motorcycles of around 50cc+, that is not to say they should be overly focused on the latter at the expense of the former rather it is simply to prevent segment retreat that created a void which in OTL was readily filled by foreign motorcycle manufacturers.
 
The craft makers had some great ideas but, essentially they bought in the tricky bits and made a frame etc. to mount them on. Going back in time Brough Superior did that for the top end too.
Brough Superior launched their own engine in 1938 in the 996 cc Four cylinder (doubly opposed) OHV-engined Golden Dream, with shaft drive. Though they used the same worm gear layout as the Sunbeam S7/8; so I have to wonder if the mechanism can hold up to the Brough's 996cc power.

brough-dream.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brough_Superior_Golden_Dream

The geared cranks are interesting (see below from Wikipedia page), reminding me a little of an Ariel Square Four.

220px-H-Engine_Four_Stroke.gif


Going back to the Light-Car proposal in OTL there were quite a few production microcars that used motorcycle-based engines such as the Honda N360 / Honda Z and BMW 600 / BMW 700 along with others from Opperman, Fairthorpe Cars and Berkeley Cars that largely used motorcycle-based engines from other companies.

There was also the Duncan Dragonfly prototype that used a 500cc 2-cylinder air-cooled OHV BSA motorcycle engine (likely from the BSA A7 motorcycle) that was bought by Leonard Lord of Austin (after lack of interest from Jaguar and BSA) as well as the Austin A20 prototype that used a 500-670cc 2-cylinder 2-stroke engine from Joseph Ehrlich of EMC Motorcycles, with BMC later focusing on other parallel endeavors.

Even Kawasaki and Ducati considered producing microcars such as the early-60s Kawasaki KZ360 and 1946 Ducati DU4.
MG, I think I've found you a good candidate engine for expansion into British micro and subcompact cars. Put this perfectly vibe-free Brough Superior aircooled four into your early post-WW2 small car, and you've got a powerful, air cooled runabout - though this pricey engine will not give us a "people's car" for the mob.

dream2.jpg
 
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Brough Superior launched their own engine in 1938 in the 996 cc Four cylinder (doubly opposed) OHV-engined Golden Dream, with shaft drive. Though they used the same worm gear layout as the Sunbeam S7/8; so I have to wonder if the mechanism can hold up to the Brough's 996cc power.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brough_Superior_Golden_Dream

The geared cranks are interesting (see below from Wikipedia page), reminding me a little of an Ariel Square Four.

220px-H-Engine_Four_Stroke.gif


MG, I think I've found you a good candidate engine for expansion into British micro and subcompact cars. Put this perfectly vibe-free Brough Superior aircooled four into your early post-WW2 small car, and you've got a powerful, air cooled runabout - though this pricey engine will not give us a "people's car" for the mob.

dream2.jpg

If Borough Superior decided to return to car production after WW2 using the 42 hp (?) 996cc Flat-4 Golden Dream motorcycle's engine, they would be better off going down a similar FWD aluminum-body route to the OTL Panhard marque with the Dyna X though obviously given their reputation a microcar would be out of the question.

Always wondered why Borough Superior never returned to making motorcycles post-WW2, cannot understand why no suitable engines was cited a reason given a number of pre-production Borough Superior Golden Dream motorcycles were produced?

An interesting motorcycle-derived engine worth seeing developed by one or more UK motorcycle manufacturers for an ATL microcar would be a high-displacement 500-750cc 2-stroke Twingle / Split-Single engine, the only OTL post-war microcar example is the original 240cc Iso Isetta whereas motorcycles from EMC and TWN were powered by Twingle / Split-Single engines as large as 350cc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-single
 
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Always wondered why Borough Superior never returned to making motorcycles post-WW2, cannot understand why no suitable engines was cited a reason given a number of pre-production Borough Superior Golden Dream motorcycles were produced?


The Brough Superior Club cites the change in the world of post-war Britain with the government requiring permits and red tape. Changes in the general atmosphere of life can do that to you.

For large two-strokes, Scott Motorcycles had some engineering to rival the Germans, and although the company withered away in 1950, enthusiasm for the distinctive marque still remains.
 
The Brough Superior Club cites the change in the world of post-war Britain with the government requiring permits and red tape. Changes in the general atmosphere of life can do that to you.

For large two-strokes, Scott Motorcycles had some engineering to rival the Germans, and although the company withered away in 1950, enthusiasm for the distinctive marque still remains.

Perhaps Borough Superior would be more inclined to resume motorcycle production under a post-war ATL Churchill government, especially given how like the UK Motorcycle Industry the UK Car Industry in OTL feared the Attlee government would nationalize everything. With some within the Attlee government wanting a co-operative UK People's Car project (involving Roy Fedden and Grantham MP Denis Kendall's respective motoring projects), while others wanted to implement a UK version of France's Pons Plan that would have destroyed the UK's luxury car industry like it did across the channel.

While there was post-war austerity, at the same time there was huge domestic demand for any form of personal transport (whether 2-wheels, 3-wheels or 4-wheels).

Speaking of Scott Motorcycles at one point the 3-wheeled Morgan F-Series would to feature the 986cc 3-cylinder 2-stroke engine from the Scott Model 3S until the project was shelved, it also seems that Scott produced a prototype 100 hp 1968cc inline 6-cylinder car engine by doubling-up the 3-cylinder 2-stroke bike engine. Would be interested in finding out more about Scott's car-engined projects.

http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-british-motorcycles/scott-three-inspired-car-zmcz14mazbea
 
Rudge-1939-Special-BG-2.jpg


The Rudge Company was owned by EMI, when, during WWII, the Company went off the scope. The radar scope. Perhaps, EMI pays more attention to motorcycles and less to radar.
 
Rudge continuing to make motorcycles after WW2 appears doable.

As for Rover entering the motorcycle industry, doubtful if by itself. Though maybe in a scenario where ATL BMC under Joe Edwards (instead of George Harriman) acquires Rover (instead of Jaguar) and later either buys AMC or a few smaller motorcycle companies / combines, which is subsequently re-branded to Rover motorcycles with the intention of directly challenging both Triumph cars and motorcycles (assuming the latter two end up under one roof via ATL Leyland Motors).

Somewhat OT though has there been any OTL instance of a motorcycle engine being derived from a car engine?

The reason for bringing it up relates back to Edward Turner's 1942 proposal to Jaguar's William Lyons, originally the latter's Twin-Cam XK6 engine was to also spawn 4-cylinder engines until Jaguar realized by the early-1950s that it's image on the market had moved beyond the need for a replacement tp the old pre-war 1.5 Standard unit.

Had Jaguar agreed to Edward Turner's 1942 proposal though, could an 900-1000cc OHV or DOHC water-cooled equivalent of the Edward Turner designed Triumph Speed Twin / Tiger 100's 2-cylinder engines be developed from a 4-cylinder version of the XK6 engine assuming such a thing is possible?

Not that a 2-cylinder derived from the XK6 engine would have necessarily been the immediate choice of engine for the ATL Jaguar-owned Triumph motorcycle company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XK6_engine#Early_development
 
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So a car-derived engine is less then ideal for motorcycles, still it might be the case that an Edward Turner developed motorcycle engine for Jaguar's motorcycle business ends up sharing similar features to the XK6 engine such as DOHC and maybe even Hemi-heads (as used on Crocker Motorcycles) should they decide to go down that route.
 
While there was post-war austerity, at the same time there was huge domestic demand for any form of personal transport (whether 2-wheels, 3-wheels or 4-wheels).
IIRC thanks to the high demand and long waiting lists - due to six years of no production, steel rationing, and 'export or die' policies which saw half of all cars being sent overseas - the value of cars immediately increased the moment the customer took possession.
 
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