AHC: Permanently Balkanized China post Yuan
- Thread starter Gloss
- Start date
scholar
Banned
Gloss, it is possible to break China apart into different Chinas, but at this point it is going to be exceedingly difficult for you to break China into different nations. Tibet and the Steppe, sure. Yunnan? Maybe. More? Unlikely.
To make an analogy that is illustrative, yet deeply flawed, imagine you are talking about 12th century Europe and you are asking us to tell you "how can we bring back Hellenism and other Pagan religions?" You'll get people telling you it might be possible in the northernmost fringes of Scandinavia, parts of Eastern Europe - Particularly Lithuania, and maybe Russia. Or for another, what parts of the Middle East can be made Christian again?
When we discuss China, the political unit is irrelevant. We are discussing a cultural, political, and social identity that defines how individuals see the world. That they spoke different languages meant nothing to that broader identity, and much like Latin or Classical Arabic united Catholic Europe and the Middle East, literary Chinese united China. But, unlike those two areas, the very existence of two emperors is an afront to the existence of another. To be Emperor meant to be Emperor of China, not such and such a place. If you want to break China and what it means to be Chinese, you need to start earlier with the Warring States, or with the Han. By the time of the Tang its almost too late, and certainly be the Song it was.
To make an analogy that is illustrative, yet deeply flawed, imagine you are talking about 12th century Europe and you are asking us to tell you "how can we bring back Hellenism and other Pagan religions?" You'll get people telling you it might be possible in the northernmost fringes of Scandinavia, parts of Eastern Europe - Particularly Lithuania, and maybe Russia. Or for another, what parts of the Middle East can be made Christian again?
When we discuss China, the political unit is irrelevant. We are discussing a cultural, political, and social identity that defines how individuals see the world. That they spoke different languages meant nothing to that broader identity, and much like Latin or Classical Arabic united Catholic Europe and the Middle East, literary Chinese united China. But, unlike those two areas, the very existence of two emperors is an afront to the existence of another. To be Emperor meant to be Emperor of China, not such and such a place. If you want to break China and what it means to be Chinese, you need to start earlier with the Warring States, or with the Han. By the time of the Tang its almost too late, and certainly be the Song it was.
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Well I never expected it to be easy or likely, it´s just frustrating to find people that outright say it´s impossible(as in ASB), it´s not like we are speaking of very small and flat place.
A dynasty is most powerful immediately after unification.It's attempts to reconquer territory lost to the nomads immediately after unification was utterly disastrous.Zhao Guangyi,the second emperor of the dynasty,barely escaped with his life.
scholar
Banned
A way to do what you want is to break Northern China into two pieces, and shatter the South. While a three state system has proven to be stable in the short term, and a two state system can be stable in the long term, both tend for eventual unification. Recreate the Warring States, and you have a shot.
A problem I thought I´d have is that if we fracture the North too much we just open the door to the nomads attacks that would quickly replace the fractured north.
scholar
Banned
That's not as true as you might think. There are three main gateways into China to use old province names: Liang/Qin, Bing/Zhao, and You/Yan. Three smaller states centered around those provinces could easily prevent large scale Nomadic invasion. China tended to have the most problems with the northern nomads when they destroy localities that provide a bulwark to expansion. Also, united nomads are easier to control by a Chinese state than disunited nomads, for a Khagan or Chanyu is relatively easy to deal with, but a hundred Khans are impossible. Besides, nomadic raids of large scales typically were migrations, otherwise they did not penetrate very deep. Think old school medieval harrying.
To be fair, the Song is pretty case specific. The Song owed it's existence to a military coup, as was the norm in the five dynasties. And thus, Emperor Taizu’s paranoia and eventual trimming down of the power of generals (who may launch a coup) is rather understandable. TTL's Big Red Blob meanwhile most likely owes it's existence to peasant Rebellions and will not be subject to such a situation.
To expand a bit my knowledge, the Chinese dinasties names were chosen in a fancy way but the kingdom or empire always stayed the "Middle Kingdom", given prolonged balkanization and less hope of reunification would eventually local (Sinitic) states be named after something else or would the dynasty name remain? What if like the government is overthrown?
scholar
Banned
The Dynastic names would remain. Dali wasn't something exotic, it just meant the Great Li Dynasty. There's no national identity outside of being Chinese, but their loyalty is intently focused upon the Emperor and his family. If you want a national identity, it will emerge from that loyalty rather than from any other local interest.
Could different social groups end up having different identities? So for example a middle class urban group would fuel local regionalism away from the aristocratic and bureaucratic Han one.
scholar
Banned
There is no middle class. While imperfect, the confucian class model is an apt one for describing China. There is the gentry, the artisans, the farmers, and the traders. The Mercantile class is usually looked down upon, while maintaining a high degree of influence and some degree of intermarriage into the gentry. Skilled artisan laborers could also afford a relatively wealthy status, and were more respected. On a whole, however, merchants and artisans aspired to be the gentry if they had enough wealth. To become a scholar gentry, you just need to go through the imperial examinations and obtain a post. If the "middle class" became powerful enough to affect the gentry, their children would become the gentry through the examination system. It wasn't a perfect transition, but a government post comes with a certain gentry status that will stick with you afterwards. Hell, people who fail the examinations in rural poor areas are still widely respected and often employed by those who passed in order to govern the area.
As an aside - China's bureaucracy is very top heavy, it does really well at the provincial level. It almost disappears at the village level. To be a member of government meant to be an elite, and as a consequence a scholar gentry. Merchant clans often rose to such prominence, particularly in civil war. The Sun family of Eastern Wu were descendants from merchants who became generals.
What I mean is if this is only limited to Northern China, this could potentially result in South Chinese considering themselves different from North Chinese.
Which one in particular? I took a particular attention in making sure borders coincided with mountain ranges or so.
scholar
Banned
The Yangze/Chang Jiang is absolutely important to the security of the southern states. Not only does Red have some of the river, compromising their defenses, they have Nanjing - one of the greatest powerhouses on the river. Shanghai was not really all that important at this time, the true center of power was further west in Nanjing.