AHC/PC: world communism

[sciscisciortino]

With a POD no earlier than 1848, could the world have been dominated by "communist" or "socialist states" at any point or continuing to today?

Now, when I say dominated, not necessarily every great power must be socialist (though I'd prefer it if someone could come up with that), but at least most of them should be. For an example, again, you do have Jello's timeline with the USA/USSR juggernauts, but couldn't a socialist USA and Spanish Civil War also result in a toppling of France, which was politically unstable and full of tension at this time? Could that tether Britain to the Axis, or isolate it? Could that result in it?

 

[Lleibi]

I think a successful revolution in the German Empire during the WWI would be necessary for this. I have no idea what kind of PoD could make it so.
If it is possible, the strength of the different CPs in Europe would be greater, and the communism wouldn't be simply a proxy of the Russian imperialism.

 

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There were a lot of places that had potential communist revolutions in the immediate period of the late WW1 and after. Italy, Hungary, Germany... You could almost make all of Europe east of France part of comintern through some luck and some PODs that stem reactionary suppression.

 

[Mekajiki]

If you can pull off a revolution in the US, the sheer power of the US is enough to probably secure western hemisphere communism.

If you can handwave Germany/Russia/Hungary as well, it may just be doable.

The biggest issue is that people who were pro-communist will struggle with the aggression necessary for this. Even if you defeat the state, defeating the people can still be challenging. Still, I think Communist USA is where you need to start. No one else will be able to impose communism on the US in any feasible scenario, so it needs to come from within and have America export it.

 

[Alternate History]

Communist USA is impossible at that period. It was economically powerful, socially ultra-conservative, politically isolationistic. (And still is today, except for the isolationistic part.) However, a communist Germany, allied with a Soviet Russia and a Soviet "Great Hungary" could have achieved European hegemony easily, inciting revolutions in France and Britain with good chances of success. And the revolution could well have spread to Italy as well - in fact, it's probably easier to topple the Italian capitalists than the British and French ones.

After that, Latin America is probably the most likely target to revolutionise, with its extreme examples of capitalist avarice and large underclasses living in shanty towns. If it can somehow unite, an European-Latin American communist axis could very well spread its ideology to the rest of the world, especially considering that as more of the world goes communist, capitalism will suffer from ever bigger problems as it loses access to markets completely.

 

[Lleibi]

Communist US would probably have to wait till a Great Depression-style economic crisis. By then, the bulk of Europe should be communist, to make that solution look like a realistic one, specially having in account that IOTL the Soviet Union suffered the Great Depression less. If this happens as well for all the communist powers in Europe in the alternate TL, it would give communism a large support among the industrial workers and the disenfranchised in the US. Specially if a conservative/laissez-fare president is in the office.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Communist USA is impossible at that period. It was economically powerful, socially ultra-conservative, politically isolationistic. (And still is today, except for the isolationistic part.) However, a communist Germany, allied with a Soviet Russia and a Soviet "Great Hungary" could have achieved European hegemony easily, inciting revolutions in France and Britain with good chances of success. And the revolution could well have spread to Italy as well - in fact, it's probably easier to topple the Italian capitalists than the British and French ones.

After that, Latin America is probably the most likely target to revolutionise, with its extreme examples of capitalist avarice and large underclasses living in shanty towns. If it can somehow unite, an European-Latin American communist axis could very well spread its ideology to the rest of the world, especially considering that as more of the world goes communist, capitalism will suffer from ever bigger problems as it loses access to markets completely.

Places like say the United States, which is probably one of the least likely nations to go communist by the late 19th/early 20th century, are major exporters of grain, manufactured goods, and an abundance of raw materials.

Are you really saying that a somehow united communist Europe (because despite everything they say I really doubt a communist France and a communist Germany would be best buddies) is going to band together to embargo a nation without whose grain they will face enormous spikes in food prices along with a significant drop in the availability of manufactured goods and American resources?

 

[modelcitizen]

If the United States somehow had many more slaves and many more factory workers and harsher subjugation of both by a politically invulnerable aristocratic class, there'd be a touch more fuel for a fire.

As is, in otl, there were some worker unrest situations in the late 19th century that were memorable, afaik.

Have the civil war come later and with emancipation thwarted by a deal that somehow saves the union and slavery, you'll have a LOT of African-Americans who came "this close" to freedom and then had it yanked out from under them; sprinkle in Marxism, and, "come the revolution..."

 

[RousseauX]

Communist USA is impossible at that period. It was economically powerful, socially ultra-conservative, politically isolationistic. (And still is today, except for the isolationistic part.) However, a communist Germany, allied with a Soviet Russia and a Soviet "Great Hungary" could have achieved European hegemony easily, inciting revolutions in France and Britain with good chances of success. And the revolution could well have spread to Italy as well - in fact, it's probably easier to topple the Italian capitalists than the British and French ones.

After that, Latin America is probably the most likely target to revolutionise, with its extreme examples of capitalist avarice and large underclasses living in shanty towns. If it can somehow unite, an European-Latin American communist axis could very well spread its ideology to the rest of the world, especially considering that as more of the world goes communist, capitalism will suffer from ever bigger problems as it loses access to markets completely.

The caveat is of course, Communist countries will also see a corresponding decline in trade and therefore standard of living which will of course just piss everybody off and radicalize them even further against whichever Communist party in power because most people care far more about gaining the benefits of oil export revenue or able to buy consumer goods than the political process.

Well right up until the point when the first generation of Communist leaders dies/gets deposed and the next generation starts to take out loans/imports from the west anyway.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

With a POD no earlier than 1848, could the world have been dominated by "communist" or "socialist states" at any point or continuing to today?

Now, when I say dominated, not necessarily every great power must be socialist (though I'd prefer it if someone could come up with that), but at least most of them should be. For an example, again, you do have Jello's timeline with the USA/USSR juggernauts, but couldn't a socialist USA and Spanish Civil War also result in a toppling of France, which was politically unstable and full of tension at this time? Could that tether Britain to the Axis, or isolate it? Could that result in it?

Given that britain, france and germany are all ruled ruled by socialist governments about half the time, that the LDP in japan is more or less there, and the opposition moreso, all the challenge really needs is for russia to either transition to a socialist democracy, or revert back to communism.

 

[Alternate History]

(because despite everything they say I really doubt a communist France and a communist Germany would be best buddies)

Why not?

is going to band together to embargo a nation without whose grain they will face enormous spikes in food prices along with a significant drop in the availability of manufactured goods and American resources?

I'm not sure how well a communist Europe could sustain itself. My brain is not a supercomputer with every nation's resource output saved in it. If it serves their purposes, the communists could decide to open up trade with the USA, if they believe that an embargo would hurt them more than the capitalists. I doubt this would be the case, however.

The caveat is of course, Communist countries will also see a corresponding decline in trade and therefore standard of living which will of course just piss everybody off and radicalize them even further against whichever Communist party in power because most people care far more about gaining the benefits of oil export revenue or able to buy consumer goods than the political process.

Well right up until the point when the first generation of Communist leaders dies/gets deposed and the next generation starts to take out loans/imports from the west anyway.

Or, you know, screw that. Abolish money, introduce labour vouchers, make the economy actually socialist. You all underestimate the power of a bunch of industrialised countries banding together under the red banner, because your views have been skewed by the only example of socialism in history that managed to defend itself from reaction: one that was an agricultural, impoverished and isolated state that had to struggle to survive up until 1945. There was a reason why Lenin would have sacrificed Soviet Russia if it would have meant establishing a Räterrepublik of Germany. Dictatorships of the proletariat work a lot better when there is, you know, proletariat. But go on, keep believing that a socialist economy is bound to head for collapse while capitalism is the success story of our dreams that can survive anything and everything. (That's why depressions happen, yes?)

 

[SRT]

Or, you know, screw that. Abolish money, introduce labour vouchers, make the economy actually socialist. You all underestimate the power of a bunch of industrialised countries banding together under the red banner, because your views have been skewed by the only example of socialism in history that managed to defend itself from reaction: one that was an agricultural, impoverished and isolated state that had to struggle to survive up until 1945. There was a reason why Lenin would have sacrificed Soviet Russia if it would have meant establishing a Räterrepublik of Germany. Dictatorships of the proletariat work a lot better when there is, you know, proletariat. But go on, keep believing that a socialist economy is bound to head for collapse while capitalism is the success story of our dreams that can survive anything and everything. (That's why depressions happen, yes?)

By Marx's beard, I wish someone would post this on every AH.com thread about communism.

 

[Vingilótë]

Or, you know, screw that. Abolish money, introduce labour vouchers, make the economy actually socialist. You all underestimate the power of a bunch of industrialised countries banding together under the red banner, because your views have been skewed by the only example of socialism in history that managed to defend itself from reaction: one that was an agricultural, impoverished and isolated state that had to struggle to survive up until 1945. There was a reason why Lenin would have sacrificed Soviet Russia if it would have meant establishing a Räterrepublik of Germany. Dictatorships of the proletariat work a lot better when there is, you know, proletariat. But go on, keep believing that a socialist economy is bound to head for collapse while capitalism is the success story of our dreams that can survive anything and everything. (That's why depressions happen, yes?)

So...magic?

 

[Alternate History]

So...magic?

Go on..............

 

[PoeFacedKilla]

Or, you know, screw that. Abolish money, introduce labour vouchers, make the economy actually socialist. You all underestimate the power of a bunch of industrialised countries banding together under the red banner, because your views have been skewed by the only example of socialism in history that managed to defend itself from reaction: one that was an agricultural, impoverished and isolated state that had to struggle to survive up until 1945. There was a reason why Lenin would have sacrificed Soviet Russia if it would have meant establishing a Räterrepublik of Germany. Dictatorships of the proletariat work a lot better when there is, you know, proletariat. But go on, keep believing that a socialist economy is bound to head for collapse while capitalism is the success story of our dreams that can survive anything and everything. (That's why depressions happen, yes?)

spoken like a true socialist; i'd vote for you

and when did this trend of believing that socialist nations can't trade come from?

 

[Rex Mundi]

Why not?



I'm not sure how well a communist Europe could sustain itself. My brain is not a supercomputer with every nation's resource output saved in it. If it serves their purposes, the communists could decide to open up trade with the USA, if they believe that an embargo would hurt them more than the capitalists. I doubt this would be the case, however.



Or, you know, screw that. Abolish money, introduce labour vouchers, make the economy actually socialist. You all underestimate the power of a bunch of industrialised countries banding together under the red banner, because your views have been skewed by the only example of socialism in history that managed to defend itself from reaction: one that was an agricultural, impoverished and isolated state that had to struggle to survive up until 1945. There was a reason why Lenin would have sacrificed Soviet Russia if it would have meant establishing a Räterrepublik of Germany. Dictatorships of the proletariat work a lot better when there is, you know, proletariat. But go on, keep believing that a socialist economy is bound to head for collapse while capitalism is the success story of our dreams that can survive anything and everything. (That's why depressions happen, yes?)

I am also a leftist, but this is idiocy. The industralized countries will not band together under the red banner and abolish money. Also, the factors that would have made Germany a better place for socialist revolution to start are the same factors that made a socialist revolution unlikely there.

 

[Edward_Elric]

Zimmerwald1915's Wir Sind Spartakus! TL, depicting a successful German Revolution, is a scenario which, if ever extended, could fulfill the OP's requirements.

Communist USA is impossible at that period. It was economically powerful, socially ultra-conservative, politically isolationistic.

Hey, the Russian Empire fit those two aspects just as, if not far more easily than the early US in the years leading up to its downfall.

Keep Roosevelt from gaining the presidency, sideline the Progressives in the two major parties, and the Socialists will gradually attract more and more votes. While they may or may not institute a genuine revolution once elected (depending on how the ruling class reacts), it is possible for them to have a stronger presence in the US.

 

[Alternate History]

Hey, the Russian Empire fit those two aspects just as, if not far more easily than the early US in the years leading up to its downfall.

The difference is that while the US public was generally conservative as well, the Russian workers were very militant and class-conscious beginning from the failed revolution of 1905. I suppose it could have been possible if you can make the Socialists grow and yet have a depression still hit the US, but that's still a matter of decades at the very least.

I am also a leftist, but this is idiocy. The industralized countries will not band together under the red banner and abolish money.

Why not?

Also, the factors that would have made Germany a better place for socialist revolution to start are the same factors that made a socialist revolution unlikely there.

Socialist revolution was very likely in Germany in 1919. I would say that in that, Germany, Russia and a couple of other countries were ahead of their time, as unfortunately the early 20th century was not the most suitable time for a world revolution, it was just the best opportunity up to that point. It took an alliance of literally all of the capitalist political spectrum, from the socdems to the ultraright, as well as the mercenaries of the Entente on standby, to put it down. If what you are implying is that poorer countries are more likely to go communist, then I have bad news for you: that's not true. It is rarely a good idea to project the Cold War onto everything. It would be more accurate to say that countries who get a taste of the worst side of capitalism - a depression, a lost war (and Germany had both in the decade-and-a-half following WWI), something like that. Something which shatters the belief of the working class in the idea that capitalism is sustainable.

 

[RMcD94]

What's the difference between labour vouches that denote a value and currency that, uh, represent a value in exactly the same way?

Just that 1 labour voucher = 1 hour of any kind of work? Why not just pay people £5 per hour (min and max wage) of work then, or something?

Edit: In regards to the topic, I think technology is a major benefit for communism, shit like personal ID cards/chips allow the government (or people owned government or whatever) to be able to watch the economy and the transfer of goods. As well as models and simulations available with computing power, management of people and the world becomes a lot easier with far more information. Hell even things like tracking people with ID chips having GPS so you can completely map movement and use that to allocate public services.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

If you can pull off a revolution in the US, the sheer power of the US is enough to probably secure western hemisphere communism.

If you can handwave Germany/Russia/Hungary as well, it may just be doable.

The biggest issue is that people who were pro-communist will struggle with the aggression necessary for this. Even if you defeat the state, defeating the people can still be challenging. Still, I think Communist USA is where you need to start. No one else will be able to impose communism on the US in any feasible scenario, so it needs to come from within and have America export it.

Great Depression, 1932 elections, etc...