AHC: Neo-Nazis take control of Germany after 1945
Simple really, a nuclear war between NATO and the WP sometime after the mid-60's loosens up their grip on Europe and some far right dudes (including some Bundeswher personnel going rogue, AKA "turning to the dark side" ala Kylo Ren from Star Wars) gain influence among the war weary populace who long for a form of civilization and are once again misled to believe it was the fault of the jews and "untermenschen" who brought Germany to ruin, nuclear ruin in this case. Instantly declared a rogue state by the successors of the USA and USSR and yet has somehow acquired nuclear weapons to deter them even though the Fourth Reich has to deal with the post-apocalyptic environment and raiders of sorts in the first few decades, as well as post-nuclear food shortages.
Usually regimes like the Nazis find purchase when the existing regime is totally discredited in the eyes of a good chunk of the population (particularly that of the militarily relevant population). Normally it takes something like a currency collapse/hyperinflation to get there. So what you'd need is an explosive decomposition of the EU coupled with a German economic collapse. Then the old uniforms might get pulled out of the attics and extras supplied by Hollywood, which has a surplus.
The real question is not “could they take control?” It’s “could they keep control?”
Answer, somewhere between No and Hell No in the Cold War period.
If it’s any time before the 1970s, you might see a joint US-Britain-France one nuke apiece attack to make it clear as crystal the nazis will not be tolerated.
Answer, somewhere between No and Hell No in the Cold War period.
If it’s any time before the 1970s, you might see a joint US-Britain-France one nuke apiece attack to make it clear as crystal the nazis will not be tolerated.
If a nuclear war does not actually destroy both the USSR and the USA, whichever power survives is not going to let Germany "go Nazi."
If a nuclear war does actually destroy both the USSR and the USA, most likely it will destroy Germany, too...
RightHoJeeves
Banned
Not possible during the Cold War but today I think we could see a right-wing nationalist movement with tinges of Nazism take over if there's another economic crisis that discredits the ruling parties. There's a lot of nasty hostility towards migrants in European political culture that could provide a rallying point for hate groups if things got bad. National socialism, after all, has at its core the blood and soil conception of the nation state which means hardcore xenophobia.
To be honest, due to the outbreak of the Cold War, de-nazification wasn't really accomplished. There were plenty of ex Nazis who found their way back to politics, and as a result its a question how many politicians in West Germany were former Nazis.
Even if every single one was former Nazi, it doesn't matter as long as Americans have all those military bases plus hefty amount of soft power.
Germany had it's self-governance returned under certain conditions, and I am pretty sure if she broke those conditions, or ejected American soft power, she'd found American bombs and cruise missiles lobbied at her.
Easy.
At the close of World War II in 1945 the chaotic conditions in Western Europe, which resulted from fundamental disagreements between the victorious allied nations and the failure of the United Nations Organization, gave rise to a new nation, Europa.
When the surrender of Germany was followed almost immediately by wholesale allied withdrawals, a small group of determined men, confirmed in their belief in the totalitarian nation-state, gathered in Spain, took over the control of the weakening government, and established the Europa Republic.
That this action was possible was due primarily to quarrels that broke out among- the former allies, a disinclination on the part of any one nation to accept the responsibility for the direct physical action necessary to suppress this new group, and finally the clever use of propaganda and slogans which freely used the terms "democracy," "the people," and other similar terms.
As soon as the new government had firmly consolidated its position in Spain and Spanish Morocco, it began to infiltrate to the north and east. A fertile field for their well planned and executed propaganda was found in southern France, northern Italy, Bavaria, and the Tyrol, where United States occupational forces were rapidly being redeployed. A strong secession movement grew almost overnight in those areas which the weakened central governments of France and Italy and the ineffective provisional government of Bavaria were powerless to prevent. The natural revulsion of these peoples toward communism asserted itself and provided a strong psychological weapon for the organizers. All races and classes were appealed to.
After a brief but violent uprising in early 1946, aided and controlled from the Europa capital by means of a highly trained fifth column, these two areas were granted independence, promptly applied for union with Aggressor, and were admitted to the Republic.
Immediately upon the successful conclusion of this venture, Europa entered upon a well-balanced and carefully controlled period of intense development and organization of all resources and phases of national life. The immediate goal of national unity and relative self-sufficiency was quickly obtained. In contrast to its neighbors, Europawas reasonably prosperous and its people happy and contented with the new government which started fulfilling its initial promises. Of course, one distinct advantage enjoyed by the new nation was that the bulk of its lands had escaped the destruction of war which had so severely impaired the national economy of other European nations.
Europa was in a peculiar position in the world, as her able leaders had foreseen. Initially backed in secret by the western allied powers as a buffer against the Slavic nations and communism, Europa was even more secretly supported by the Comintern as an acceptable vehicle for the spread of communism throughout Catholic Europe and as a buffer to the wealthy western allies. Europa was engaged in a race against time. She must be a well established power when the dull and war-weary former allies realized her true ambition and organized to put her down. Her leaders believed that she must strike before that day. Her blow must be against the most powerful nation. While she was doing so the others must be kept placated. The nation to be struck must not be allowed to reach her offensive potential in order to lead the strike against the new nation.
Turning its attention from the devastated areas of Western Europe to the prosperous and unscathed lands of North America, Europa began plans in early 1946 for an invasion of the United States. Although the United States had emerged from the war as a strong military nation, its hasty and ill-advised demobilization together with widespread internal disturbances and general war weariness finally convinced the High Command that such a plan offered reasonable chance of success if aided by a well organized subversive organization and a skillful propaganda campaign.
2. POPULATION
The newly acquired lands raise the population figure of the Republic to about 110,000,000. In addition, an active campaign, was launched to attract immigrants and displaced persons from other European nations. Scientists, soldiers, and professional men of all types were particularly desired. Preferential treatment was accorded leaders in scientific, industrial, and military fields. Former Quisling groups of other nations took full advantage of this offer.
Strong efforts have been adopted to increase the population by raising the normal birth rate. The usual means of bounties, state education for certain children, and other conventional practices are in effect. The ultimate result, of course, will be the necessity of acquiring new lands to accommodate the fast-growing population.
3. LANGUAGE AND RELIGION
Spanish has been adopted as the official language; although it has not fully supplanted the local French, German, and Italian in certain areas, it is expected to do so in the course of another generation. In this matter and in religion, Europa has proved to be tactful, employing subtle means to achieve its ends.
While there is no state religion as such, complete religious freedom is enjoyed throughout the Republic. This policy has had the distinct advantage of not antagonizing or alienating any religious group. In fact, Europa agents have infiltrated the various religions and use them abroad to further their own national propaganda.
4. FORM OF GOVERNMENT
The government is completely totalitarian in form. Control is highly centralized at the top and tends somewhat toward bureaucracy. It enjoys the normal advantages attendant on totalitarianism, i. e., efficiency and quick decisive action with all branches of national life directed toward a common end (e. g., the quick mobilization for war in 1946).
Government functions are marked by impressive ritual and an air of mystery. This has had a strong appeal to many classes of people in the country.
The real power in government is in the hands of a small group of men. The total membership in this select group, having representatives from all professions, is for the most part unknown. International figures are present, among whom Martin Bormann, Tito Farruchi, Pilar Cordoba, and the great industrialist and financier, Kurt Fryssen, hold government portfolios. Strict party discipline is a fetish. Leadership is vested in the Supreme Council, familiarly termed the "Trinity" by followers and enemies alike. Bormann represents the Teutonic peoples, the popular Farruchi the Italians and French, and Cordoba the Spanish and Arab peoples. All of these men are popular, dynamic figures. Their authority appears to be equal.
5. INDUSTRY.
Considerable emphasis has been placed upon development of national industry. With the factories of Bavaria and northern Italy as a nucleus, industry has been expanded and dispersed according to a well-conceived plan of national strategy. In this connection, the communication system has been revolutionized. The nation's war potential has been extensively developed. The manufacture of atomic weapons, though not definitely known, is believed to be taking place. Industry is closely coordinated with the needs of the armed forces.
6. ARMED FORCES.
The armed forces have been rapidly expanded along sound lines. Disbanded troops of many nations flocked to the Europa Republic and formed the cadre of a large well-balanced professional fighting force. Conscription was inaugurated to build up a large trained reserve. Experienced military leadership was readily available and eager to accept employment; all were welcomed. The remnants of the Wehrmacht and the Junkers were again employed and rapidly regained their old self-esteem.
The training of all components is extremely thorough and rigorous. A very high standard of discipline is maintained; morale and esprit de corps are excellent, and the prestige of the armed forces is high.
The standing army is composed of two army groups, each numbering roughly 1,000,000 men. In addition, a third army group headquarters exists to train and control a replacement training army and a peoples militia integrated with the national police to be used as a final reserve in the event of invasion. The air force maintains two operational air armies and in case of emergency assumes control of all civil aviation which is organized along military lines. One army group and an air army are stationed in Spain and Morocco, the other army group and air army in France and Italy.
The naval arm, while not large, is well developed. Weak in capital ships, the Europa Navy has emphasized submarines, aircraft carriers, and small, fast torpedo boats. Marine detachments perform local security duties, man naval antiaircraft defenses, and carry out shore patrol and other administrative functions. They are not organized for ground combat.
The nation's manpower, including women, has been carefully registered and graded by mental and physical profiles. In general, all combat arms receive about the same proportion of the various classifications. The infantry, however, receives particular attention and its recruits are carefully selected for physical stamina. Within the infantry, the fusiliers are a highly selected group, and represent the pick of the nation's manhood.
Every citizen is drafted for national service and directed to the work he can perform most efficiently. Those not accepted by the armed forces are carefully regulated as to type and place of work. Air raid protection and fire fighting groups are well organized. In addition, all personnel on civilian assignments can be called upon for service in a military force called up in case of invasion of the homeland.
Yep, I ripped off the Circle Trigonists.
Anchises
Banned
Outright Neo-nazis copying the NSDAP are not possible without high doses of ASB or nuke-induced radiation.
However:
History rarely repeats itself. What you can realistically get in my oppinion is modern Nazi/Fascists.
The kind of guys who say: "Yeah, sure Hitler was a criminal BUT (he made Germany strong/...)"
The champions of the clean Wehrmacht myth, who view Barbarossa as the necessary fight against Communism.
And after a few beers they would even describe what the Einsatzgruppen did as "anti-terror measures".
Basically a toxic mix of ex-Nazis, the modern hard right and German nationalists.
How do you get a POD where they reach power?
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naumann-Kreis (unfortunately only exists in the German wiki) Naumann Circle: These guys basically were a bunch of high ranking ex Nazis trying to infiltrate the FDP, a liberal (in the european sense) party. They failed IOTL but they had considerable initial successes. Eventually the British occupying forces arrested them though. ITTL they avoid this fate and they keep slowly infecting more and more of the FDP, metastasizing into the CDU/CSU. Intially they use their influence to prevent persecution for their crimes etc.
At some point you need a bigger POD that changes the power dynamic in Europe though.
A first idea would be this: After the initial "Westbindung" of the FRG just pull the rug out under the feet of the new republic. The USA slowly start neglecting NATO, lets say Korea escalates more than IOTL, leading to a U.S. foreign strategy that wants to "neutralize" Germany as a buffer in Europe.
In the SU Khruschev never reaches power, so the Soviets stay on a Stalinist course.
Then Vietnam happens, which also escalates more. The USA finds itself in a war with China and starts seriously pushing for a "comprehensive settlement" in Europe after an anti-war leftwing Democrat is elected.
The Soviets are actually ok with reunification and a neutral Germany because their economy is even more shitty than IOTL because continued Stalinism isn't working at all (even tighter central control of the economy, CRAZY ammounts of military spending). They hope that a neutral Germany would serve as convenient access point to Western markets, stabilizing the ailing Soviet economy.
By 1970/71 the former Allied Powers are starting to withdraw from the FRG and GDR. A loose German Confederation is formed, with the aim of an eventual full reunification. But for now the FRG and GDR are still existing as seperate states.
In this volatile situation, the continuing student unrest (1968 is even more severe ITTL) and the leftwing terror of the RAF are heating up the political climate in the FRG even more. By now the Naumann Circle has infested wide parts of the FDP and CSU. Even in the CDU there is a considerable ammount of symphatizers.
The Naumann Circle has third positionist views (basically nice chivre for fascist), that gain more and more traction due to the geopolitical situation. They reject the Führerkult and antisemitism of the NSDAP as "outdated" and "bad for business" (actually what these guys believed) and they want to reestablish Germany as neutral Great Power. They hope to play both Superpowers against each other, to gain the necessary concessions to recreate the Germany they want.
The GDR is meanwhile collapsing all around the Politbureau. Without Soviet tanks the SED regime is easy prey for a popular insurrection.
This leada to a reunification much faster than the Superpowers anticipated.
The CDU/CSU is falling apart into a Christian Democratic and Deutschnationaler successor.
The Deutschnationale Partei wins a crushing victory in the former GDR and due to an even more conservative FRG ITTL, manages a strong showing in the West.
The Deutschnationale Partei wins by a razor thin margin and becomes the strongest party.
They enter coalition with the FDP and a weakened Christian Democratic successor. The new reunified Germany has the joy of recieving a constitution influenced by the ideas if this asshats and you have a bunch of expansionist crypto Nazis in control of Germany.
However:
History rarely repeats itself. What you can realistically get in my oppinion is modern Nazi/Fascists.
The kind of guys who say: "Yeah, sure Hitler was a criminal BUT (he made Germany strong/...)"
The champions of the clean Wehrmacht myth, who view Barbarossa as the necessary fight against Communism.
And after a few beers they would even describe what the Einsatzgruppen did as "anti-terror measures".
Basically a toxic mix of ex-Nazis, the modern hard right and German nationalists.
How do you get a POD where they reach power?
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naumann-Kreis (unfortunately only exists in the German wiki) Naumann Circle: These guys basically were a bunch of high ranking ex Nazis trying to infiltrate the FDP, a liberal (in the european sense) party. They failed IOTL but they had considerable initial successes. Eventually the British occupying forces arrested them though. ITTL they avoid this fate and they keep slowly infecting more and more of the FDP, metastasizing into the CDU/CSU. Intially they use their influence to prevent persecution for their crimes etc.
At some point you need a bigger POD that changes the power dynamic in Europe though.
A first idea would be this: After the initial "Westbindung" of the FRG just pull the rug out under the feet of the new republic. The USA slowly start neglecting NATO, lets say Korea escalates more than IOTL, leading to a U.S. foreign strategy that wants to "neutralize" Germany as a buffer in Europe.
In the SU Khruschev never reaches power, so the Soviets stay on a Stalinist course.
Then Vietnam happens, which also escalates more. The USA finds itself in a war with China and starts seriously pushing for a "comprehensive settlement" in Europe after an anti-war leftwing Democrat is elected.
The Soviets are actually ok with reunification and a neutral Germany because their economy is even more shitty than IOTL because continued Stalinism isn't working at all (even tighter central control of the economy, CRAZY ammounts of military spending). They hope that a neutral Germany would serve as convenient access point to Western markets, stabilizing the ailing Soviet economy.
By 1970/71 the former Allied Powers are starting to withdraw from the FRG and GDR. A loose German Confederation is formed, with the aim of an eventual full reunification. But for now the FRG and GDR are still existing as seperate states.
In this volatile situation, the continuing student unrest (1968 is even more severe ITTL) and the leftwing terror of the RAF are heating up the political climate in the FRG even more. By now the Naumann Circle has infested wide parts of the FDP and CSU. Even in the CDU there is a considerable ammount of symphatizers.
The Naumann Circle has third positionist views (basically nice chivre for fascist), that gain more and more traction due to the geopolitical situation. They reject the Führerkult and antisemitism of the NSDAP as "outdated" and "bad for business" (actually what these guys believed) and they want to reestablish Germany as neutral Great Power. They hope to play both Superpowers against each other, to gain the necessary concessions to recreate the Germany they want.
The GDR is meanwhile collapsing all around the Politbureau. Without Soviet tanks the SED regime is easy prey for a popular insurrection.
This leada to a reunification much faster than the Superpowers anticipated.
The CDU/CSU is falling apart into a Christian Democratic and Deutschnationaler successor.
The Deutschnationale Partei wins a crushing victory in the former GDR and due to an even more conservative FRG ITTL, manages a strong showing in the West.
The Deutschnationale Partei wins by a razor thin margin and becomes the strongest party.
They enter coalition with the FDP and a weakened Christian Democratic successor. The new reunified Germany has the joy of recieving a constitution influenced by the ideas if this asshats and you have a bunch of expansionist crypto Nazis in control of Germany.
In this timeline how is Hitler and the Nazis viewed today? The same? Or could you see it more as how Stalin is viewed as a great man in Russia?
Anchises
Banned
Somwhere between how Russia sees Stalin and how Germany sees Hitler.
The discussion would probably be more focused on relativization (the Allies commited war crimes too!) and the "clean Wehrmacht" that fought the Bolsheviks.
Would some form of hard-left movement perhaps actually be the beneficiary of Germany finding itself in crisis once again, given that they tried the whole hard-right thing and it didn't work out too well? I know there's Cold War culture working against that possibility, but what if their ideology included remaining independent from the Soviets along the lines of Yugoslavia or China, or even reuniting with the East under an independent authoritarian communism? (The latter would be pie-in-the-sky nonsense as long as the Soviets had anything to say about it, but that doesn't preclude opportunistic demagogues from promoting the notion anyway.)
They would get killed, hard. Not even a wishy washy political language police action deal. The US, the British, the French, and the rest would move in, curb stomp them and enforce and tighten whatever military occupation and draconian laws are necessary to totally burn away any sign of a Fourth Reich and with more rage than they did when they fought a war that turned Berlin into a parking lot. There is zero toleration in the West for a Third War.
doubt they would need to, the Soviet Union and the rest of the WP countries would not take a Fascist take over again lightly