AHC: Megacity in the Iberian Peninsula

[JDF_01]

So the title states clearly the challenge, but it is lets say a multitiered challenge, it can be made under any kind of circumstances and events possible, it could be an imperial capital city of a united iberian nation, a city state, having OTL borders, some spanish autonomy becoming independent abandoning the rural areas and breeding into unsustainable levels, both iberian states retaining their overseas empires and transforming their capitals into western gateways into europe full of diversity and overpopulation, some key city in a surviving into modern day roman empire...

There is no limit for a POD to reach the objective of having a megacity in iberia, wether it is Lisbon, Porto, Madrid, Seville, Valencia, Barcelona or Bilbao. The only condition is to have a megacity that DO NOT extend into another city using arbitrary criterias that would fill the role and achieve the challenge instantly

so there is 5 possible ''difficulties'' into this challenge:
1) Having one or two cities with populations higher than 10 million inhabitants
2) Having one city with a population higher than than 20 million inhabitants and one with a population higher than 10 million
3) Having only one city with a population higher than 30 million inhabitants
4) Have either Lisbon or Madrid reaching a population higher than 30 million inhabitants
5) Have both iberian capitals reaching a population higher than 20 million inhabitants

Lets make an overcrowded Iberia!!! :v

 

[Nivek]

Why not an Andalusi made one? Cordoba, Valencia or other could become that...

 

[JDF_01]

Why not an Andalusi made one? Cordoba, Valencia or other could become that...

Any city can compete, and i thought about both capitals locations because i couldn't think about a better possition, could change that tho

 

[Nivek]

Any city can compete, and i thought about both capitals locations because i couldn't think about a better possition, could change that tho

techically could be a planned City, like otl castillans took a ribat from nowhere calle madirah. Regardless the evolution could be the andalusi fully conquering the peninsula and with the pyrenees as a defensive border vs french, could growth with the time, thanks arabs more uyrban nature, an megacity could be possible later on

 

[JDF_01]

techically could be a planned City, like otl castillans took a ribat from nowhere calle madirah. Regardless the evolution could be the andalusi fully conquering the peninsula and with the pyrenees as a defensive border vs french, could growth with the time, thanks arabs more uyrban nature, an megacity could be possible later on

I thought about a 'Mega lisbon' on a wanked united iberia acting as an imperial capital and growing big due to it being the western gateway of europe, and because tagus estuary kinda inspired me of a european version of Tokyo bay, but i could be biased and kinda wanting to wank Portugal hehe

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Iberia is really mountainous, so there's only a few low flat areas that can easily feed a huge city in pre-industrial times, and then provide space for limitless sprawl once importing food becomes an option. Based on that some sort of super Seville would be my go to.

 

[Nivek]

That work for an Andalusi/MUSLIM one too

Iberia is really mountainous, so there's only a few low flat areas that can easily feed a huge city in pre-industrial times, and then provide space for limitless sprawl once importing food becomes an option. Based on that some sort of super Seville would be my go to.

I thought about a 'Mega lisbon' on a wanked united iberia acting as an imperial capital and growing big due to it being the western gateway of europe, and because tagus estuary kinda inspired me of a european version of Tokyo bay, but i could be biased and kinda wanting to wank Portugal hehe

I doubt would be here, Portugal OTL was the fooled partner. for me a Seville, Cordoba or Barcelona could be the one.

 

[JDF_01]

Iberia is really mountainous, so there's only a few low flat areas that can easily feed a huge city in pre-industrial times, and then provide space for limitless sprawl once importing food becomes an option. Based on that some sort of super Seville would be my go to.

Any of the big cities would have to grow into a relatively 'big' size for that eras, but i think the bulk of that grow would come during the 20th century when there would be tech available to build and support denser cities (public transportation, sanitation, taller buildings, seismic regulations in construction...)

 

[JDF_01]

That work for an Andalusi/MUSLIM one too



I doubt would be here, Portugal OTL was the fooled partner. for me a Seville, Cordoba or Barcelona could be the one.

Wouldn't the prefered city for Andalucía be Córdoba?
And about PT, yes they were pretty much under the shorter side of a funnel, but maybe if a union lasts longer into the 1800's anything could happen, let's hope for an unrealistic chain of affortunate events

 

[Nivek]

Wouldn't the prefered city for Andalucía be Córdoba?

Seville was growthing a lot too during Al-Andalus/islamic era,(is Al-Andalus, not andalusia)

 

[JDF_01]

Seville was growthing a lot too during Al-Andalus/islamic era,(is Al-Andalus, not andalusia)

Oof, my bad, i was thinking about the region, not the kingdom

 

[Denliner]

I think Toledo, Lisbon, Cordoba, and Seville have pretty good chances of being such a mega-city.

Honestly, having Al-Andalus being a united entity is the easiest way to go around this, since they were a highly urbanized society that preserved much of the irrigation that the Romans left behind. However, a more stable Christian Iberian Union under a different dynasty (Portuguese or Castilian controlled it doesn't really matter) is also a surefire way towards higher population growth in the cities, since they could redirect most of their assets towards infrastructure and the economy instead of constant war.

 

[Socrates]

Hard to see a megacity without modern capitalism. You need massive capital formation to get the wealth levels needed to drag that many people into cramped circumstances.

 

[JDF_01]

Seville was growthing a lot too during Al-Andalus/islamic era,(is Al-Andalus, not andalusia)

If a Planned city was to be built in al andalus, let's say under a nationalistic modern-postmodern era republic/kingdom woulnd't be Cartagena in Murcia be suitable for a city to be built, i mean there is a wide flat valley between two cordilleras around cartagena, there would be more than enough space to build and not counting with flat areas near murcia (city) and into valencia, Mar menor would be suitable to be used as a port? are there considerable changes in tide in that lagoon, is it deep enough?

 

[Nivek]

If a Planned city was to be built in al andalus, let's say under a nationalistic modern-postmodern era republic/kingdom woulnd't be Cartagena in Murcia be suitable for a city to be built, i mean there is a wide flat valley between two cordilleras around cartagena, there would be more than enough space to build and not counting with flat areas near murcia (city) and into valencia, Mar menor would be suitable to be used as a port? are there considerable changes in tide in that lagoon, is it deep enough?

Could be, Qartayannat al-Halfa was a very nice port, and could with enought butterflies the megacity of Al-Andalus alongside the capital

 

[JDF_01]

Would an al-andalusi spain be more tolerant to both jewish and Christian populations than Catholic Spain was to Jewish and Muslims? That would also help any Iberian nation to hold a bigger population, a tolerant and prosperous country would attract immigrants from elsewhere in Europe and the Mediterranean regardless of religions

 

[funnyhat]

The first level (10 million inhabitants) is not too difficult. Have the Spanish government become as centralistic as that of France, determined to turn Madrid into the capital of everything - politics, economy, culture. Industry is concentrated there. By today it has exceeded 10M.

The other levels are hard. The total population of the peninsula needs to be higher. You probably need no colonial empire for Spaniards to migrate to, so that the population would be higher - but even then, I think a lot would just emigrate to other parts of Europe.

 

[Gloss]

The first level (10 million inhabitants) is not too difficult. Have the Spanish government become as centralistic as that of France, determined to turn Madrid into the capital of everything - politics, economy, culture. Industry is concentrated there. By today it has exceeded 10M.

The other levels are hard. The total population of the peninsula needs to be higher. You probably need no colonial empire for Spaniards to migrate to, so that the population would be higher - but even then, I think a lot would just emigrate to other parts of Europe.

The colonial empire did not lower the population of the mainland, it did not do it to England, it did not do it to Portugal either. Settler colonialism virtually never by itself lower the demographic growth of the homeland before the demographic transition sets in.

 

[Denliner]

Would an al-andalusi spain be more tolerant to both jewish and Christian populations than Catholic Spain was to Jewish and Muslims? That would also help any Iberian nation to hold a bigger population, a tolerant and prosperous country would attract immigrants from elsewhere in Europe and the Mediterranean regardless of religions

Depends on the POD.

An Umayyad al-Andalus or an Almoravid al-Andalus might end up being more tolerant compared to one dominated by the Almohads. One that is based on a Taifa wank could also be more tolerant of Christians, but they aren't as predictable compared to something like the Almoravids/Almohads.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Any of the big cities would have to grow into a relatively 'big' size for that eras, but i think the bulk of that grow would come during the 20th century when there would be tech available to build and support denser cities (public transportation, sanitation, taller buildings, seismic regulations in construction...)

Super dense is cool and all, but modern megacities still tend to take up hundreds, sometimes thousands, of km^2. Room to grow, and cheaply at that, is an absolute must. There's also the part where it's a near universal fact that mountainous regions are generally more impoverished than nearby non-mountainous regions, and population movements tend to follow economic prosperity.