AHC: Make Mexico Great in Timeline-191

[PsychoNeo]

I have a challenge for you guys. For those familiar with Timeline-191, you know. For those not familiar, educate yourself. The challenge here is to make Mexico a significant part of the TL-191 history. In the books, they offensively don't matter much in the grand scheme of affairs in the world, especially when they border two nations that want to exterminate each other.

So I don't have any restrictive rules here. I simply want to read all your ideas on how Mexico can matter in TL-191. It could be territorial expansion into Central America, a thriving monarchy, a socialist revolution, an alliance with the US, a radically neutral nation (like fucking Switzerland), or anything else. Viva La Mexico damn it.

 

[Lalli]

Let Maximilian I live longer (ratherly until around First Great War) so he could enact some more meaningful reforms. If there still is Second Mexican-American War, try find way manage that better if even then Mexico loses Chihuahua and Sonora. Then stay out from FGW. After the war Mexico should create closer relationships with CPs. And during interwar years create sphere of influence on Central America.

When Second Great War breaks out, firstly stay out but sometimes in 1943 jump side of CPs and invade CSA and British Honduras (modern day Belize). And perhaps try take some black refugees from CSA and give some support for Afro-American militias. At end of the war Mexico should claim Chihuahua, Sonora and British Honduras. And of course if possible take French island of Clipperton on Pacific.

 

[Deleted member 200746]

If I could warp into Harry Turtledove's body circa 1996, I would completely rewrite Mexico's lore. Several things changes I'd make are-

1: Have Maximilian live until 1921. His big brother died midway through WWI so it's not unreasonable for him to live slightly longer.
2: Have Maximilian adopt Franz Ferdinand as his heir so the latter ends up as Francisco I of Mexico. This would require changing the catalyst for the Great War but given the geopolitics of the time, I'm sure some alternative could be found.
3: Remove the Second Mexican War entirely and have Mexico keep Sonora and Chihuahua. Instead, have the second dustup between the USA and CSA be the "Sequoyah War" that starts by having Custer get a little too trigger happy during his confrontation with the Confederate officer early in HWR.
4: Instead of purchasing Sonora and Chihuahua, have the CSA purchase Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain.
5: Instead of having Mexico be a CSA puppet, have them be a neutral middle power that plays the US and CS against each other, sorta like a more successful Ottoman Empire or Italy.

 

[Lalli]

If I could warp into Harry Turtledove's body circa 1996, I would completely rewrite Mexico's lore. Several things changes I'd make are-

1: Have Maximilian live until 1921. His big brother died midway through WWI so it's not unreasonable for him to live slightly longer.
2: Have Maximilian adopt Franz Ferdinand as his heir so the latter ends up as Francisco I of Mexico. This would require changing the catalyst for the Great War but given the geopolitics of the time, I'm sure some alternative could be found.
3: Remove the Second Mexican War entirely and have Mexico keep Sonora and Chihuahua. Instead, have the second dustup between the USA and CSA be the "Sequoyah War" that starts by having Custer get a little too trigger happy during his confrontation with the Confederate officer early in HWR.
4: Instead of purchasing Sonora and Chihuahua, have the CSA purchase Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain.
5: Instead of having Mexico be a CSA puppet, have them be a neutral middle power that plays the US and CS against each other, sorta like a more successful Ottoman Empire or Italy.

Sounds great but I don't think that you need move FF to Mexico. Hadn't Maximilian son ITTL? At least someone succeeded him as emperor anyway. Or then he could still adopt grandson of Agustín I like in OTL. Then you have not change casus belli of GW1.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

4: Instead of purchasing Sonora and Chihuahua, have the CSA purchase Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain.

See, this is a lot better than Sonora and Chihuahua, but the problem is that Spain refused to sell Cuba to the US in OTL (numerous times), and also pumped in over 180000 men in 10 years to keep it in the Ten Years War of 1868-1878, whilst in the midst of also fighting their own civil war in Spain.

Spain was desperate to keep Cuba no matter what.

 

[Deleted member 200746]

Sounds great but I don't think that you need move FF to Mexico. Hadn't Maximilian son ITTL? At least someone succeeded him as emperor anyway. Or then he could still adopt grandson of Agustín I like in OTL. Then you have not change casus belli of GW1.

Fair enough. TBH this is pretty inconsequential, I just thought that if Maximilian had consolidated his power, he'd kick the Iturbides to the curb and keep it in the family (As Habsburgs like to do, in more ways than one). IIRC Maximilian had disdain for the Iturbides and didn't see them as true royalty.

 

[Deleted member 200746]

See, this is a lot better than Sonora and Chihuahua, but the problem is that Spain refused to sell Cuba to the US in OTL (numerous times), and also pumped in over 180000 men in 10 years to keep it in the Ten Years War of 1868-1878, whilst in the midst of also fighting their own civil war in Spain.

Spain was desperate to keep Cuba no matter what.

Well, Spain will have to quit sooner or later, and then the CSA can sweep in with sweet sweet cash and take Spain's problem off their hands. The purchase might have to be moved up to the turn of the century, but it's still plausible.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Well, Spain will have to quit sooner or later, and then the CSA can sweep in with sweet sweet cash and take Spain's problem off their hands. The purchase might have to be moved up to the turn of the century, but it's still plausible.

See, I don't disagree with your POV. I don't.

And I agree, Spain seems destined to unfortunately lose its control over whatever remains of its overseas territories.

Cuba seems a more liklier expansion than Sonora/Chihuahua, especially if you want to keep Mexico as an ally, and also the Second Empire. Maximillian selling that territory, even if it is full of Liberals/Republicans, is likely a death blow for his government regardless, so it makes no logical sense to do so.

But as I said, Spain - in OTL - spent 10 years fighting, nearly 200000 men and lots of material, to keep their prized possession in the Americas. They rejected all of the attempts of the US to buy all the way to the Spanish-American war of OTL. They rejected Polks offer, Peirce's offer, Buchanan's Offer and even Grants attempts....
why would they suddenly decide to successfully to the Confederates....

 

[Whiteshore]

2: Have Maximilian adopt Franz Ferdinand as his heir so the latter ends up as Francisco I of Mexico. This would require changing the catalyst for the Great War but given the geopolitics of the time, I'm sure some alternative could be found.

Maybe have the Black Hand assassinate Archduke Rudolf (butterflies meant he didn’t kill himself ITTL) for all this, then?

 

[Lalli]

Maybe have the Black Hand assassinate Archduke Rudolf (butterflies meant he didn’t kill himself ITTL) for all this, then?

Perhaps altough in other hand Turltedove didn't care much of butterflies.

 

[Reisen Storm]

The challenge here is to make Mexico a significant part of the TL-191 history. In the books, they offensively don't matter much in the grand scheme of affairs in the world, especially when they border two nations that want to exterminate each other.

Depends, are we still bound to make WW1 but in America, or are allowed to work with the world that we are given?

 

[Deleted member 200746]

See, I don't disagree with your POV. I don't.

And I agree, Spain seems destined to unfortunately lose its control over whatever remains of its overseas territories.

Cuba seems a more liklier expansion than Sonora/Chihuahua, especially if you want to keep Mexico as an ally, and also the Second Empire. Maximillian selling that territory, even if it is full of Liberals/Republicans, is likely a death blow for his government regardless, so it makes no logical sense to do so.

But as I said, Spain - in OTL - spent 10 years fighting, nearly 200000 men and lots of material, to keep their prized possession in the Americas. They rejected all of the attempts of the US to buy all the way to the Spanish-American war of OTL. They rejected Polks offer, Peirce's offer, Buchanan's Offer and even Grants attempts....
why would they suddenly decide to successfully to the Confederates....

I'm nowhere near educated enough on the internal politics of Spain at the time to give any great answers, but to just throw some ideas out, perhaps a surviving First Republic or Savoyard Monarchy decide to cut their losses?

 

[PsychoNeo]

Depends, are we still bound to make WW1 but in America, or are allowed to work with the world that we are given?

...Yes (translation: It doesn't matter whether it's changes to the timeline or working with the given timeline)

 

[YusaEmi]

In my headcanon/Romance of the Three Empires, Mexico does get aid post-war under the Marshall Plan which down the line causes them to become a highly developed country by the end of the century and be in the top 10 biggest economies in the world if that counts?

 

[Polish Eagle]

I have a challenge for you guys. For those familiar with Timeline-191, you know. For those not familiar, educate yourself. The challenge here is to make Mexico a significant part of the TL-191 history. In the books, they offensively don't matter much in the grand scheme of affairs in the world, especially when they border two nations that want to exterminate each other.

So I don't have any restrictive rules here. I simply want to read all your ideas on how Mexico can matter in TL-191. It could be territorial expansion into Central America, a thriving monarchy, a socialist revolution, an alliance with the US, a radically neutral nation (like fucking Switzerland), or anything else. Viva La Mexico damn it.

The natural course of action for a US bent on Remembrance is to make common cause with the only other country with possible territorial claims against the CS--that is, Mexico. The US had, after all, already used "Sonora and Chihuahua are rightful Mexican clay" as its cassus belli in 1881--offering to restore those states (and possibly Texas too?!) to Mexico after a victory over the CS should have been a diplomatic gambit (maybe Zimmerman is involved ITTL). Maybe it was behind the scenes, but London and Richmond spoke louder.

I wonder if you could have Mexico change sides, a la Italy abandoning the Triple Alliance. Of course, suppressing the Anglo population of Texas after the annexation will be a headache for them. Mexico's OTL population was only 15 million in 1910--annexing Texas's 4 million or so Anglo settlers is going to tax their resources.

 

[Whiteshore]

Perhaps altough in other hand Turltedove didn't care much of butterflies.

That’s true, though having a surviving Archduke Rudolf be the one who getting assassinated triggers the Great War would still fit the lack of butterflies

 

[La Rouge Beret]

If I could warp into Harry Turtledove's body circa 1996, I would completely rewrite Mexico's lore. Several things changes I'd make are-

1: Have Maximilian live until 1921. His big brother died midway through WWI so it's not unreasonable for him to live slightly longer.
2: Have Maximilian adopt Franz Ferdinand as his heir so the latter ends up as Francisco I of Mexico. This would require changing the catalyst for the Great War but given the geopolitics of the time, I'm sure some alternative could be found.

What advantage would Franz Ferdinand provide to Mexico as their Emperor? As I have only read mixed reports about the man's capabilities.

4: Instead of purchasing Sonora and Chihuahua, have the CSA purchase Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain.

I really like that as a change, however it would prevent the CSA from pursuing a coast-to-coast dream. Although, it is likely to be greeted with a grunt by the Americans and unlikely to force the second War.

5: Instead of having Mexico be a CSA puppet, have them be a neutral middle power that plays the US and CS against each other, sorta like a more successful Ottoman Empire or Italy.

In my Mexico focused TL 191 fanfiction that is exactly how I portray Mexico, namely as a middle power that attempts to cultivate a positive diplomatic relationship with both the Americans and the Confederates.

 

[PsychoNeo]

In my Mexico focused TL 191 fanfiction that is exactly how I portray Mexico, namely as a middle power that attempts to cultivate a positive diplomatic relationship with both the Americans and the Confederates.

Do you have a link to it?

 

[Lalli]

The natural course of action for a US bent on Remembrance is to make common cause with the only other country with possible territorial claims against the CS--that is, Mexico. The US had, after all, already used "Sonora and Chihuahua are rightful Mexican clay" as its cassus belli in 1881--offering to restore those states (and possibly Texas too?!) to Mexico after a victory over the CS should have been a diplomatic gambit (maybe Zimmerman is involved ITTL). Maybe it was behind the scenes, but London and Richmond spoke louder.

I wonder if you could have Mexico change sides, a la Italy abandoning the Triple Alliance. Of course, suppressing the Anglo population of Texas after the annexation will be a headache for them. Mexico's OTL population was only 15 million in 1910--annexing Texas's 4 million or so Anglo settlers is going to tax their resources.

Would Mexicans even want Texas back anymore? It was pretty much headache for Mexicans already before First Mexican-American War. Chihuahua and Sonora yes, but Texas might be too much and Americans probably would see that as US clay or at least not want Texas going to Mexico. Furthermore it would be politically stupid to give strongly anglified area to Spanish speaking nation.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Do you have a link to it?

I'm in the middle of writing it, so if you're willing to act as a beta reader and provide feedback.

I'm happy to share.