AHC: make Germany and Japan switch their attitudes towards the war

Your challenge if you choose to accept it, is for Japanese society to be eternally repentant for the events of the war and to gladly provide compensation long after it's legally required. Every Japanese schoolchild has the detailed events of the early 20th century drilled in their minds, and denying any atrocities will cause painful legal and social troubles.

By contrast, make a large part of German society legitimize, whitewash, or downplay the events of Nazi Germany, to the extent the German Chancellor openly questions whether Poland brought the invasion on itself, and where ambitious politicians openly covet the votes of neo-Nazis. Senior government and Bundestag members openly visit shrines to the Wehrmacht, and official statements are often dismissed as insincere or half-hearted.

PoD is flexible, but WW2 must still occur in a recognizable form. The later the PoD the better.
 
I think to have this happen, you need to make it so that the Germans are perhaps able to hold out just enough to avoid total unquestionable defeat like they did while Japan suffers even worse defeats then they did OTL instead of the we obviously lost but can still try to take as many with us. Whats more, also weaken the Soviets position post war so the US doesn't need to worry about having a strong post war ally to help resist the Soviets in particular and communists in general.
 
Have the Allies directly conquer all of Germany, or have Germany surrender to the Allies before the latter make sufficient agreements with the Soviets. In exchange for being an ally against Communism, the Reich stays the Reich minus Nazi government.

Meanwhile, in Asia things unfold differently. Mao Zedong dies a martyr on the Long March, and command of the CCP is turned over to someone like Zhou Enlai. In any case, they continue the march all the way to East Turkestan and Mongolia, and are marginalized as a force capable of uniting China. After the war, the USSR invades Manchuria in similar fashion as before, except due to butterflies it takes longer for the Kantogun to be defeated. The entirety of Korea is surrendered along with the rest of Japan to the USA.

In the postwar scene, a People's Republic of China (commonly referred to as just "Manchuria") is set up with its capital at Beijing, while the rest of China is Nationalist. East Turkestan and Tibet are never conquered, and the former is a Soviet puppet similar in status to Mongolia. The Manchuria-based Communist Korean resistance tries to take back their country from the American puppet government, but the campaign is in vain and only makes the USA paranoid of Communist expansion in East Asia.

The instability of the ROC in particular is worrying. Similar to Europe, the Americans think that it would be best if the "free countries" get along amiably, so when reforming Japanese politics and law they give explicit attention to reparations, apology, and complete recognition of war crimes.
 
Your challenge if you choose to accept it, is for Japanese society to be eternally repentant for the events of the war and to gladly provide compensation long after it's legally required. Every Japanese schoolchild has the detailed events of the early 20th century drilled in their minds, and denying any atrocities will cause painful legal and social troubles.

By contrast, make a large part of German society legitimize, whitewash, or downplay the events of Nazi Germany, to the extent the German Chancellor openly questions whether Poland brought the invasion on itself, and where ambitious politicians openly covet the votes of neo-Nazis. Senior government and Bundestag members openly visit shrines to the Wehrmacht, and official statements are often dismissed as insincere or half-hearted.

PoD is flexible, but WW2 must still occur in a recognizable form. The later the PoD the better.



Why do you hate Germany so much? :(
 
But West Germany was an extremely crucial ally against the Soviets. So much that the western allies allowed ex-Nazis to resume positions as long as they kept quiet. So much so, they swallowed any doubts to rearming West Germany. Yet still (West) Germany remains almost perfectly as the good guys.

Another condition: give ATL Germany intractable territorial disputes with many neighboring states over seemingly insignificant land (so no "important" lands like Sudetenland or Silesia). Like, Eupen-Malmedy with Belgium, the Allenstein region of East Prussia with Poland, the Polish Corridor, etc.

Why do you hate Germany so much? :(
But I love Germany! :eek:
 
But West Germany was an extremely crucial ally against the Soviets. So much that the western allies allowed ex-Nazis to resume positions as long as they kept quiet. So much so, they swallowed any doubts to rearming West Germany. Yet still (West) Germany remains almost perfectly as the good guys.

Another condition: give ATL Germany intractable territorial disputes with many neighboring states over seemingly insignificant land (so no "important" lands like Sudetenland or Silesia). Like, Eupen-Malmedy with Belgium, the Allenstein region of East Prussia with Poland, the Polish Corridor, etc.


But I love Germany! :eek:
So why do you hate Japan so much? :D Just kidding...

If one achieves your first request, this second one will come naturally combined with the slightest ambiguity in any peace treaty. A Nazi Germany that surrenders early to the Allies as described by Leo would probably do it. If this Germany is hostile to the Soviets it's definitely going to bitch about whatever square centimeter they take...
 
Maybe a successfull "Valkyrie". Hitler is killed, Stauffenberg and the others take over. After some month Germany still have to formally surrender unconditional, but in fact their are some unspoken aggrements, which limits the prosecution of the Wehrmacht and the industrial elite. A german goverment stays in power and there are already election in 1945. The Germans develope an attidute, "Yeah, bad things have happend, but it was just this crazy Nazis and we cleaned up our house alone and didn´t really needed this holier-than-you Allies for this!"
Earlier end of the war in Europe leads to more resources for the Pacific war, and an Operation Downfall and Soviet involvment month before the nukes are ready. As the nukes are dropped its just the last straw which brakes Japans back after Kyoto and Tokio are already overun by the Americans and Hokaido by the Soviets. No deal for Hirohitho, who gets the full war crimonal treatment.
 
But West Germany was an extremely crucial ally against the Soviets. So much that the western allies allowed ex-Nazis to resume positions as long as they kept quiet. So much so, they swallowed any doubts to rearming West Germany. Yet still (West) Germany remains almost perfectly as the good guys.
Something about their entire country being destroyed and violently occupied by two opposing superpowers, I think, made historical self-reflection more necessary IOTL than in Japan, which essentially fought a war, lost the war, and switched sides by surrendering, whereas Germany fought a war, lost it, and kept fighting until it was totally defeated and divided.
 

Rex Mundi

Banned
Japan didn't kill enough white people for the international community to force them to show remorse, so impossible.
 
Japan didn't kill enough white people for the international community to force them to show remorse, so impossible.
If there was a good political reason for them to do so they would've. Germany didn't fess up for no reason. A lot of the Japanese war crime denial comes from the fact that the PRC was a hostile state and still sort of is. It's also important to note that Germans care a lot more about the 6 million murdered Jews than the 20 million dead Russians, who were also their responsibility. I've met Germans who believe that the Wehrmacht wasn't actually that bad in Russia and it was mostly just the SS going around finding Jews and commissars to kill.

If there was a Nationalist China set up in the postwar world to become a Japanese ally against Communism, the chances that the Japanese education system will force everyone to learn about Nanjing and Unit 731 are much, much higher.
 
Germany being less forcibly conquered by the Western Allies wouldn't do the trick. In fact that they were only half way and the other half by the Soviets and that they were so much the front line for the early Cold War allowed for a lot more white washing of actions in West Germany after the war then if say Poland was the front line for the Cold War and/or all of Germany was Western Allied occupied.

The best way to get your outcome is Hitler dies when the bomb actually explodes on his plane in early 1943 and the military decides no to Goering and Himmler and has them killed and you get a vastly more competent German government in power. Obviously they stop the Final Solution one year in, they would need to avoid attacking Kursk and they would also need to gets a few lucky breaks fighting the Soviets and Western Allies (like overrunning an allied position and finding out Enigma had being broken something that could have happened a number of times).

If Normandy ends up mess the U.S. likely votes Republican in 1944 and they would have IMHO been running on a motto we will focus on the people who attacked us. Stalin watches the Republicans lose interest in the war in Europe and watches them cut Lend Lease to the Soviets and decides to make peace with Germany. After that Churchill and Dewey make peace with Germany in exchange for occupying France, Norway and the Low countries.

That is what I see as virtually the only way you could get German public opinion on par with Japanese public opinion regarding their past.
 
Have the Allies directly conquer all of Germany, or have Germany surrender to the Allies before the latter make sufficient agreements with the Soviets. In exchange for being an ally against Communism, the Reich stays the Reich minus Nazi government.

I was thinking something similar.

The Soviet Union would benefit greatly in Europe if Germany took this sort of attitude even though their sphere of influence would be smaller. Cooperation between France and Germany would be much more difficult and Poles might be slightly easier to control.
 
From what I have noticed Germans born and raised before the re-education of German society really kicked in have far less extreme anti-military and overall self loathing views of their past then modern generation of Germans. I think a lot of this comes down to public education. In Japan article after news article after news article shows in classrooms around that country WW2 is hardly taught at all case in point below from the BBC.

Teaching about the past as much as the classroom below is a negative, but the kind of super weak non-education a country needs about issues of its war crimes for the TL where you have a leadership that denies its past crimes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

In Germany I have talked to different individuals about the educational curriculum they went through about their past and in each case it went beyond teaching important lessons about the past into the realm of indoctrination to make sure students feel deeply ashamed of their past.

You want to change German society vastly you have to start with the school system. Already at the start of 1943 plans were made in the U.S. to 're-educate' the German population to be extreme pacifists. What we see with German education I think is basically the continuation of American 're-education' plans to this day just continued on by the Germans themselves.

0408-armies13_zps58a62e0c.jpg


They didn't intend to try with the Japanese because of racial thinking at the time in the U.S. that they couldn't be taught not to be savages they just had to be kept down. One has to change the view of Japanese in the U.S. that they could be 're-educated'. Modern German thinking is in large part influenced by American 're-education' just as Japanese thinking is influenced by the lack of American 're-education'
 
Last edited:
I think you need to get rid of the Holocaust. While Japan committed horrible atrocities they weren't unqiuely horrible, the Sack of Nanking while horrific wasn't any worse than the Mongol Sack of Baghdad. In contrast the Holocaust was unique, the organised industrial extermination of a people was a crime unmatched in history and qualitatively different from the various pogroms and massacres which so enlive history. Avoid the Holocaust and you probably get a Germany whose attitude to the war is "yeah, we did some bad stuff but then plenty of bad stuff, like strategic bombing, happened to us and that cancels our sins out."
 
I recall reading somewhere that you could divide German historiography into two periods; a period before some time in the 60s/70s, and a period after (I'm not all that familiar, so the details escape me).

Basically, before the 1960s, the combination of denazification failing to fully root out Nazism and the sheer degree to which Nazism had penetrated all sectors of German society, combined with the present of an implacable enemy just over the border, meant that for several decades, the crimes of the Third Reich weren't really given the same treatment they were after the 60s. It was, in one anecdote I recall reading, to such a point that for decades afterward, maps of Germany in train stations and such displayed German with her 1937 borders (while it was not until Brandt's Ostpolitik that the Oder-Neisse line was really accepted in any form, the year 1937, as opposed to, say, 1932, still contained some of the Nazis earliest annexations, and was indicative of the degree to which some Nazi actions were still accepted). While German historiography would recognize the Holocaust, and characterize it as wrong, and also describe WWII as an unlawful war of aggression, there also was an element of apologism, especially for the Wehrmacht, through the use of convenient scapegoats such as the SS or the Nazi leadership, most of whom were in the post war era either dead or fled. A major part of this was the dominance of the conservative old order within the German government in the twenty years or so directly after WWII, which found it convenient for its own purposes to not raise this issue, and also because many historians and memoir writers had their own reasons to apologize for certain Nazis or the Wehrmacht.

By contrast, by the 1960s, there was a very significant backlash in Germany, partially against the post-war conservative dominance, partly as a general willingness to face what the Nazis had done, and partly because refusing to recognize the GDR or the Oder-Neisse line was getting a bit farcical at that point. At least in part, the counter-culture movement arriving in Germany tended to cause people to view the war and Nazis through that perspective, there were apparently some societal pressures also, which I've forgotten, at the same time, there were radical changes in the historiography of the entire first half of the twentieth century, of whom one of the most famous historians was Fritz Fischer, which examined not only WWII historiography, but also WWI and German Empire historiography, and not towards a more positive view of the above. You might say that German anti-militarism was only born in the 1960s, thanks to a toppling of the old excuses and apologisms, and were part of a greater trend of rising anti-militarism and counter-conservative reaction.

Of course, this is mostly based on scraps I remember from history class, a book I read somewhere, some wikipedia articles, some posts on this forum, and (not that I will tell you where) a few inferences. If I've made or presented any misconceptions, or gotten anything incorrect or wrong, please inform me.
 
Of course, this is mostly based on scraps I remember from history class, a book I read somewhere, some wikipedia articles, some posts on this forum, and (not that I will tell you where) a few inferences. If I've made or presented any misconceptions, or gotten anything incorrect or wrong, please inform me.

I personally think the real change happened yes in the end of the 60s and early 70s, but when you had a whole new generation brought up and extremely educated about the horrors of what the Nazis did. But, the youth movement of people in their 20s and 30s really did not understand what life was like in Weimar Germany nor in a Totalitarian state where everyone is a cog in a machine and everyone has a gun to their head at all times.

I believe this non-fiction book that I noticed was selling well in Poland The Night I Danced With Rommel showed pretty well how ordinary Germans had no real power under Totalitarianism, but could find ways to make a small difference if they tried. In order to save her Polish and Jewish friends from liquidation she decides to go to a ball in late 1943 for the senior officer of her husband (that being Rommel) and asks him to save the lives of Polish and Jewish friends which he does after writing their names down on a bunch of napkins.

The thing about Totalitarianism that people who have never lived under it can not understand is that once its in place the people have no power and the whole society is just a machine made up of cogs with varying degrees of authority and everyone and their families is kept in line by having a gun to their heads. Had West Germany not used to cogs that helped the Germany under the Nazis run it would have been a mess much as was the case in Iraq its those people that are trained all their lives to make the government and society run and function and take them all away as Bremer did for a time in Iraq and you have a total mess.

The other factor that led to the movement in the late 60s and early 70s was the thawing of the Cold War. With West Germans feeling that WW3 isn't about to break out at any time allowed them to attack their military, concepts like patriotism, etc. in a way they wouldn't have if they really still felt the Soviet's were getting ready to invade at any moment.

NATO was a big factor in this, before NATO Germans had to rely on a series of ever shifting alliances historically as well as their military for the defense of their nation. The French on one side and the Russians on the other led to Prussia and then Germany being very nationalist and militaristic in the 19th and early 20th centuries. By the late 60s and early 70s Germans were wealthy and felt quite protected in the arms of NATO so that the pro-military, pro-nationalist mindset of the past was no longer needed and could be effectively turned into an anti-military and anti-nationalist mindset and Germany would still be rich and protected by NATO.

In one of his parting speeches as mayor in the early 90s Manfred Rommel worried that German 'politicians', but one can tell from his speeches he feared about German people as well that they haven't had to deal with the difficulty of what he calls 'real life'.

In 1995, Mr. Rommel will turn 68, which is the mandatory retirement age for mayors in Germany. He said he looks forward to some rest, but worries about the younger politicians who will follow him.

"They've grown up in a democracy, wonderfully protected by NATO, fearless, comfortable and very wealthy," he said. "They haven't been formed by the difficulty of real life. That's why some of them are so confused."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/24/world/rommel-s-son-comes-to-aid-of-foreigners.html

To him real life is a major economic depression, worthless money, allies who would stab Germany in the back given half the chance as well as enemies whose made it their goal to keep Germany down economically and militarily. Of course that is just a small part of the difficulties of what he views as real life... being so many unemployed that parties can make militias in the streets much bigger then the highly restricted army which are allowed to wage war against each other on a daily basis. Germans have it very good these days, but from what I have seen he believes that modern Germans don't at all understand what life was like back then. They might intellectually know a few facts about it, but knowing a few facts is totally different then living through it.

The generations who have no real idea what it was like to live in Germany in the 20s thru 40s and are protected by the strong arms of NATO can find it easy to attack their grandparents or great grandparents. In fact Germans today are far harder on their ancestors I have found then Germans in the late 60s, 70s and 80s.

If the Soviet Union didn't fall and we had a nut leading things the past two decades there who has been making the Cold War very hot there would be a very different view in German society right now about their past and about their military. That is inherently one way how the politics of the moment effects the view of history at the moment.

A far worse Cold War where say heavy skirmishes started by the Soviet's in the early 60s instead of all out war occurred in Germany that killed hundreds of thousands or a few million Germans would be more then enough to have your extremely nationalistic/militaristic West German government and society that white washes the past in many respects.
 
Last edited:
Top