AHC: Larger Dutch colonial empire. Could the Dutch put New Amsterdam in Canada besides New Torm? Can they take parts or all of Australia? What about New Zeland? Could they take some of India? Where else could the Dutch expand?
AHC: Larger Dutch colonial empire
- Thread starter The_Russian
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- dutch empire imperialism netherland
Lusitania
Donor
The issue with the Dutch is not what where they could of expanded but what they could of kept. They like the Portuguese had limited resources (people) and would of been out muscled of their territory by British, Spanish or French. Like iOTL they lost South Africa, India and part of East Indies to the British.
Being allied with Napoleonic France was the last nail of the Dutch colonial ambitions. While BRitish east India company was getting richer and stronger in the 18-19th century the VOC was getting weaker with it going bankrupt in the early 19th century.
You want Dutch to be that strong then butterfly away the British empire and French. But even so the location of Netherlands would mean they likely be invaded by any number of other country that would set themselves up in Europe. .
Being allied with Napoleonic France was the last nail of the Dutch colonial ambitions. While BRitish east India company was getting richer and stronger in the 18-19th century the VOC was getting weaker with it going bankrupt in the early 19th century.
You want Dutch to be that strong then butterfly away the British empire and French. But even so the location of Netherlands would mean they likely be invaded by any number of other country that would set themselves up in Europe. .
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
The Dutch don't have the number of colonists for Australia, New Amsterdam etc to expand.
If the issue with the Dutch is their population base, then would it have been advantageous to them to include or never lose the Southern Netherlands?
Skallagrim
Banned
Going with a some early POD, you can feasibly get a substantially bigger Netherlands. This would dramatically improve the Dutch chances of actually holding on to certain colonial possessions. In theory, the wars of religion could see some sort of alt-Netherlands emerge, holding on to substantial parts of the Southern Netherlands and even gaining considerable regions to the east (going all the way up to the Danish border, potentially). In such an event, the more powerful Netherlands would aborb the remnants of the dying Hanseatic League as well. If this ATL Dutch Republic this advocates itself as a haven for dissenters etc. as in OTL, you could (due to its greater size) see considerably more expelled Protestants (e.g. Huguenots) ending up there, further boosting the population.
Such a Dutch Republic could feasibly hold onto New Netherlands (stretching from the Susquehanna as its western border to the Hudson River Valley in the north-east). If stable enough, it could be so secure against France that a) it isn't ever occupied and b) it would naturally be an ally to Britain in any such war. Meaning no cases of britain grabbing up the Cape Colony and Ceylon. Furthermore, a colony in Western Australia (based around OTL Perth) would be realistic as well. Potentially, Britain could be muscled out of the Indonesian archipelago entirely, meaning all of Borneo and New Guinea end up Dutch. On a smaller scale, French Saint-Martin might be added to Dutch Sint-Maarten at some point, and the various claims in the Guyanas could all be resolved in the favour of Suriname. The Dutch gold Coast could also be a bit bigger and more lasting, with good luck, but I see only limited potential there.
Note that when I suggest the Dutch retaining the Cape Colony, I fully expect Britain to set up a colony east of there. There will be no Trek in this ATL, so the Dutch stay contained in the area of the Cape (i.e. south-western South Africa).
Also, the above is a major Dutch-wank. For maximum retention of colonies in the longest possible term, you can instead have the Dutch be deprived of their non-settler colonies as early as possible. This is realistic, as for the longest time, the sugar- and spice-colonies were the one that were worth the most. In OTL, when the Dutch could choose between New York and Suriname, they chose the latter-- and at the same, that was the only sensible economic move. Of you want less of a wank while still improving chances for long term colony-retention: make it so that the Dutch don't get such choices following any setbacks. have the British (who are most likely candidate for it) deprive the Dutch of Suriname, Ceylon, all of Indonesia, the Dutch Gold Coast and the Dutch Antilles. In return, have the British recognise - and continue to respect the integrity of - New Netherlands in North America, the Dutch Cape Colony, and Dutch West Africa. The resulting colonial empire would not be super-big, but it would be mostly settled by actual Dutchmen (even more than in OTL, because there would be no non-settler colonies to 'take up' and colonists). As a result, those colonies could remain with the Netherlands indefinitely as part of a Dutch federation or commonwealth that survives into the present day.
Finally, allow me to note that while certain more ephemeral ventures (such as Dutch Brazil) did exist, those could likely only be retained at great cost and at the expense of other options suggested above. I would not recommend them as part of a strategy to really boost the Dutch colonial empire.
Such a Dutch Republic could feasibly hold onto New Netherlands (stretching from the Susquehanna as its western border to the Hudson River Valley in the north-east). If stable enough, it could be so secure against France that a) it isn't ever occupied and b) it would naturally be an ally to Britain in any such war. Meaning no cases of britain grabbing up the Cape Colony and Ceylon. Furthermore, a colony in Western Australia (based around OTL Perth) would be realistic as well. Potentially, Britain could be muscled out of the Indonesian archipelago entirely, meaning all of Borneo and New Guinea end up Dutch. On a smaller scale, French Saint-Martin might be added to Dutch Sint-Maarten at some point, and the various claims in the Guyanas could all be resolved in the favour of Suriname. The Dutch gold Coast could also be a bit bigger and more lasting, with good luck, but I see only limited potential there.
Note that when I suggest the Dutch retaining the Cape Colony, I fully expect Britain to set up a colony east of there. There will be no Trek in this ATL, so the Dutch stay contained in the area of the Cape (i.e. south-western South Africa).
Also, the above is a major Dutch-wank. For maximum retention of colonies in the longest possible term, you can instead have the Dutch be deprived of their non-settler colonies as early as possible. This is realistic, as for the longest time, the sugar- and spice-colonies were the one that were worth the most. In OTL, when the Dutch could choose between New York and Suriname, they chose the latter-- and at the same, that was the only sensible economic move. Of you want less of a wank while still improving chances for long term colony-retention: make it so that the Dutch don't get such choices following any setbacks. have the British (who are most likely candidate for it) deprive the Dutch of Suriname, Ceylon, all of Indonesia, the Dutch Gold Coast and the Dutch Antilles. In return, have the British recognise - and continue to respect the integrity of - New Netherlands in North America, the Dutch Cape Colony, and Dutch West Africa. The resulting colonial empire would not be super-big, but it would be mostly settled by actual Dutchmen (even more than in OTL, because there would be no non-settler colonies to 'take up' and colonists). As a result, those colonies could remain with the Netherlands indefinitely as part of a Dutch federation or commonwealth that survives into the present day.
Finally, allow me to note that while certain more ephemeral ventures (such as Dutch Brazil) did exist, those could likely only be retained at great cost and at the expense of other options suggested above. I would not recommend them as part of a strategy to really boost the Dutch colonial empire.
If colonial success build on having large population to populate ones colonies, we would have this discussion in French. The Netherlands had the same population as Portugal, it also had access to massive sources of colonists in Germany and Scandinavia. In fact a significant part of the population in their few settler colonies was Germans, Huguenots and Danes in that order.
Lusitania
Donor
While a larger Netherlands including southern catholic areas could happen then we have a different European dynamics. How would a country religious split between Protestants and Catholics exists? How would France react to a larger and more powerful (possibly hostile) Netherlands at its door step? Also involving itself in taking portions of Germany would involve itself in the ongoing and exhausting HRE politics.
Each of those issues could limit Dutch expansions.
Lastly my favorite would this alternative Netherlands have anything to do with Spanish and Habsburg? Would they still have access to the Portuguese charts? For that was where they gained the knowledge of sailing to the Indian oceans.
Lusitania
Donor
Yes they did. With large portion of its sailors from Scandinavia. But a larger Netherlands that includes the southern catholic areas would be a different netherlands that might be less Protestant and this loose some of its appeal with northern Germans and Scandinavians
Actually that's a fairly interesting point as that was the same issue that doomed both. You can focus on continental expansion/defense or colonial expansion. Doing both is too much if you have a land border
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
Massive sources? New Amsterdam survived for almost 50 years yet the immigration was nowhere near Portuguese migration to Brazil. Scandinavian population is too low and German immigration was never big during Dutch rule.
The only success I see was in South Africa. Just like Portugal had Brazil, the Dutch could have South Africa. And that was already half way to the East Indies. I can hardly imagine people getting exited for Australia.
And using France as an example is wrong. The French were beaten by another power with huge population resources as England or Britain. That is 3 million Anglo Saxons vs 70k? Frenchmen In North America.
Best simple POD is that they hang on to their northeastern Brazil territories.
Either Britain, or France if you do a Britain screw, will take the Cape, Ceylon, and New Netherlands if only for strategic reasons. The Dutch did about as well in Indonesia/ the Spice Islands as you can expect. They do have a chance to hold Permanbuco against the Portuguese.
They could maybe kept New Amersterdam as an enclave on the North American coast if they were willing to give up tons of sugar producing tropical areas. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, governments always prioritized tropical sugar islands over the North American mainland, however.
Another alternative is to engineer a union between England and the Netherlands. Then the Dutch empire gets folded into the British empire peacefully. Places like the Cape could still be "assigned" to the Dutch as the Royal Navy gets facilities there anyway.
Either Britain, or France if you do a Britain screw, will take the Cape, Ceylon, and New Netherlands if only for strategic reasons. The Dutch did about as well in Indonesia/ the Spice Islands as you can expect. They do have a chance to hold Permanbuco against the Portuguese.
They could maybe kept New Amersterdam as an enclave on the North American coast if they were willing to give up tons of sugar producing tropical areas. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, governments always prioritized tropical sugar islands over the North American mainland, however.
Another alternative is to engineer a union between England and the Netherlands. Then the Dutch empire gets folded into the British empire peacefully. Places like the Cape could still be "assigned" to the Dutch as the Royal Navy gets facilities there anyway.
I think what he meant was that having a large population does not guarantee large colonies, since the French were notably stubborn about not leaving France.
I wrote something upwards of a year ago where following the end of the Napoleonic war William I aligns himself with the British hard. He manages to get back most of the prewar Dutch colonies, Indies, Ceylon, Cape, Gold coast and various other assorted possessions, with the caveat that the British RN be allowed to establish bases there. In my thing I think I had the Dutch decide to leave Australia alone, but for awhile it could have gone either way.
William manages to hold onto the Dutch speaking areas of OTL Belgium after the larger Dutch army quickly took those areas. Luxembourg was also doubled in size in this as well to the detriment of Belgium. The Netherlands industrialised quickly and established a large European army to defend itself. Relying on the British to defend their colonies and large merchant fleet. In time the Dutch navy expands and they build various ships of the line, ironclads, predreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts and even some aircraft carriers. The nation also expands its African possessions in the Berlin conference.
As per OTL the country remains neutral in WWI, but its navy is coveted by both sides. Germany outright offering to buy its dreadnoughts at vastly marked up prices. The British try a Copenhagen style takeover of the fleet and attempt to mine a lot of Dutch ports. One of their battlecruisers gets stuck and the Dutch take possession. Leading to a fleet engagement between the Dutch and British and a Dutch victory. The Netherlands stays out of the war with the British BC remaining in Dutch service and a formal apology for their planned attack.
The nation is a member of the Washington Naval treaty and gains parity with France and Italy. By this point Japan is seen as the next major likely foe and the fleet is concentrated in the Indies. Dutch military production is also boosted. With Fokker setting up an impressive complex in the Netherlands and a large series of cruisers, destroyers and submarines produced for the Dutch fleet in the 20s and 30s. Battleships and aircraft carriers are also built and as the threat of Germany grows the Dutch army expands and modernizes drastically.
In WWII the nation puts up a bitter resistance to the German invasion, managing to outlast even France and cause a significant level of casualties to the Wehrmacht. The government flees and a pronazi regime takes power which commits itself to supporting the Reich. The government in exile maintains control of the colonies and navy however. When the Netherlands fights Japan the war similarly is far more violent and bloody. With a major battle taking place in first the south China sea and then the Java sea as Dutch and Japanese fleets duel one another.
The Netherlands is still pushed from the Indies, but inflicts such heavy losses on the Japanese that the empire falls faster to the Americans. It is in Europe that the war drags on and while no atomic bombs are dropped over German cities (likely at the behest of Churchill but I cant remember) the continent is devastated. With the Netherlands spared from the worst of the bombing attacks by a determined government in exile. When Overlord occurs the Dutch rise in revolt and this leads to the end of the war.
The Netherlands gets Hannover and some other border territories as payment for the war and the wartime pronazi government is killed. The nation rebuilds and becomes a major European state. Working alongside the British and French which together form a power block largely independent of the budding American-Soviet cold war. The nation decolonised, but like other powers ITTL much more gradually. With the Indies split into many different states that featured far better infrastructure and economies than OTL. Cape colony, called Zuidland, is integrated into the Netherlands as a crown possession with its own limited self governing legislative body and military.
I cant remember what all else I wrote, but it was a lot of fun to write and when some other projects are done I may revisit it.
William manages to hold onto the Dutch speaking areas of OTL Belgium after the larger Dutch army quickly took those areas. Luxembourg was also doubled in size in this as well to the detriment of Belgium. The Netherlands industrialised quickly and established a large European army to defend itself. Relying on the British to defend their colonies and large merchant fleet. In time the Dutch navy expands and they build various ships of the line, ironclads, predreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts and even some aircraft carriers. The nation also expands its African possessions in the Berlin conference.
As per OTL the country remains neutral in WWI, but its navy is coveted by both sides. Germany outright offering to buy its dreadnoughts at vastly marked up prices. The British try a Copenhagen style takeover of the fleet and attempt to mine a lot of Dutch ports. One of their battlecruisers gets stuck and the Dutch take possession. Leading to a fleet engagement between the Dutch and British and a Dutch victory. The Netherlands stays out of the war with the British BC remaining in Dutch service and a formal apology for their planned attack.
The nation is a member of the Washington Naval treaty and gains parity with France and Italy. By this point Japan is seen as the next major likely foe and the fleet is concentrated in the Indies. Dutch military production is also boosted. With Fokker setting up an impressive complex in the Netherlands and a large series of cruisers, destroyers and submarines produced for the Dutch fleet in the 20s and 30s. Battleships and aircraft carriers are also built and as the threat of Germany grows the Dutch army expands and modernizes drastically.
In WWII the nation puts up a bitter resistance to the German invasion, managing to outlast even France and cause a significant level of casualties to the Wehrmacht. The government flees and a pronazi regime takes power which commits itself to supporting the Reich. The government in exile maintains control of the colonies and navy however. When the Netherlands fights Japan the war similarly is far more violent and bloody. With a major battle taking place in first the south China sea and then the Java sea as Dutch and Japanese fleets duel one another.
The Netherlands is still pushed from the Indies, but inflicts such heavy losses on the Japanese that the empire falls faster to the Americans. It is in Europe that the war drags on and while no atomic bombs are dropped over German cities (likely at the behest of Churchill but I cant remember) the continent is devastated. With the Netherlands spared from the worst of the bombing attacks by a determined government in exile. When Overlord occurs the Dutch rise in revolt and this leads to the end of the war.
The Netherlands gets Hannover and some other border territories as payment for the war and the wartime pronazi government is killed. The nation rebuilds and becomes a major European state. Working alongside the British and French which together form a power block largely independent of the budding American-Soviet cold war. The nation decolonised, but like other powers ITTL much more gradually. With the Indies split into many different states that featured far better infrastructure and economies than OTL. Cape colony, called Zuidland, is integrated into the Netherlands as a crown possession with its own limited self governing legislative body and military.
I cant remember what all else I wrote, but it was a lot of fun to write and when some other projects are done I may revisit it.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-netherlands-and-alternate-history-part-i.400967/
Here ya go. Read at your own risk.
unprincipled peter
Donor
The French were beaten in North America by the ability of Britain to transfer men and material across the pond. Britain made NA a priority. France didn't make it a priority and lacked the ability to transfer men and material. This, far more than the population disparity, is what carried the day for Britain.
Yes exactly, and that was the same reason why New Netherlands failed, the Dutch didn't really care about it. If the Dutch had cared, thru could easily had placed more settlers in both New Netherlands and the Cpae (which only succeed as well as it did, because it lay so isolated) as example on average the Dutch East Indies had 30.000 Dutch people in 18th century (who mostly retired in Europe). This show the Dutch could transport a large number of people to the other side of the world, if they was interested in it. As for population Netherlands was the size of Portugal and got massive immigration from the rest of Northern Europe. The lack of or very limited existience of Dutch or French settlers colonies was a choice by Paris and Amsterdam, not a inability to set them up.
So if people want a greater Dutch settler presence around the world , we need for Amsterdam seeing a benefit in having settler colonies.