AHC: Islamic Reich

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Metropolis45, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Metropolis45 Well-Known Member

    Nov 5, 2015
    Inspired by Albert Speer's claim that Hitler believed Islam was 'perfectly suited to the German temperament,' I ask you to conceive of a version of history in which a predominately Muslim German Empire founded on Germanic racial ultra-nationalism and antisemitism comes into existence.

    Earliest POD is the death of Mohammad.

    Bonus points if it goes to war with a Jewish Russia.

    Further bonus points if there is a significant. Germanic Pagan minority.
  2. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

    Oct 24, 2017
    Can we report this post for genociding butterflies?
  3. The Lethargic Lett Giving Peace a Chance

    Oct 20, 2017
    Couronian Tobago
    This area of history isn't my forte, but I know there was some battle in the Renaissance where the Moors nearly broke through into France from al-Andalus/Iberia. Perhaps if that was successful it could expand into the western Germanic states.
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  4. Metropolis45 Well-Known Member

    Nov 5, 2015
    Why? I am not asking for Hitler and Speer to still be alive, I only mentioned that this AHC was inspired by them.

    German and Russian identity both existed in some from around the time of the death of Mohammad. There is no reason states based around these identities could not exist in another timeline.
  5. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

    Feb 5, 2014
    I think the easiest (and most hilarious, insofar as Nazi worlds can be hilarious) POD would have to be post-1900: namely, the Nazis win, and--contrary to what neo-nazis today believe--they turn out to really like Islam. Islamic pretentions become a cultural fad in Germany, while home-grown national socialist parties string up in the Islamic world (sort of taking the place of OTL Arab nationalism and ba'athism). A series of strong alliances between Germany and the Islamic states is concluded. Eventually, the whole "have gazillions of kids" idea only stays popular in Germany for about one generation, with the next generation having way, waaaaaay fewer kids. Germany risks the mother of all demographic traditions... and what follows is the mass immigration of a vast number of Muslims to Europe. (So that's where it gets hilarious: neo-nazis in OTL are all like "Hitler should've won, then there wouldb't be all these Muslims here!"-- but as it turns out in this ATL, Hitler winning leads to way more Muslims in Europe than in OTL.)

    Anyway, Himmler was extraordinarily enamoured of Islam in OTL (granted: he saw them as a sort of warrior race that had a destiny to vanquish the Jews, so basically he was thinking of ISIS, not of mainstream Islam, but okay). Let's say that hitler kicks the bucket, but some of his lieutenants prove a little hasty when he fist has a non-fatal seizure or something... and he purges them... leaving "loyal Heinrich" in place to assume command. He could plausibly begin to encourage the idea that the "superior races" should intermingle (or some tripe like that), causing him to lay the ground-work for facilitating the mass immigration of Muslims in the future. And what did Himmler also like? Germanic paganism! So he could also encourage that, leading to a minority of dedicated SS soldiers who are neo-pagans. (There you have your pagan minority.)

    Just let this develop, and giving demographic realities and the fact that Germans might genuinely come to think a highly nationalist version of Islam is great for them (leading to conversion), it becomes vaguely plausible that the reich eventually ends up with a Muslim majority... while retaining a neo-pagan minority. And there you go. I admit, it's pretty weird, and it's post-1900, but the idea of a Nazi victory bringing about a Muslim Reich is--considering the OTL neo-nazi opinion on Muslims--too ironic to ignore.
  6. Christory Well-Known Member

    Oct 16, 2018
    Ottomans win at Vienna in 1683, sometime in the early 1700s they expand into and convert Germany, the Jewish population is exiled to the PLC and Russia, hilarity ensures.
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  7. Max Sinister Retired Myriad Club Member Banned

    Jan 15, 2004
    The Chaos TL
    What about pork and alcohol? Hitler maybe thought since he was vegetarian and teetotaller, he wouldn't lose much, but other Germans might have disagreed. I know, Germans, sausages and beer are a cliche, but still.
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  8. Metropolis45 Well-Known Member

    Nov 5, 2015
    Well, a point of divergence early enough to reasonably have a Muslim Germany would have to be far before the birth of Hitler. But do note that not all Muslims abstain from alcohol. Raki is a traditional Turkish alcoholic drink, and Turkey does have a number of popular beers.
  9. snassni2 Well-Known Member

    Mar 3, 2015
    But it's still haram.
    Also racist nationalism and islam don't fit.
    Only if we are talking about a sect that claims that Bilal wasn't black.
    A Reich with Alqaida/Daesh ideology would be more fitting.
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  10. Tripledot Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    Only way I could see it happening is if the Arabic elements are stripped out, at which point it kind of ceases to be Islam in any meaningful way.
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  11. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

    Oct 30, 2014
    Have the Byzantines get conquered by the Caliphate and the Franks be derailed by... something. With the East Med conquered by Muslims and no big Christian empires in the west, Islamic missionaries have a better chance of reaching Central and Eastern Europe, and Islamic powers will be prominent trade partners. Have a war among Old Bavaria's magnates end with the victorious, mercantile, pro-Islam faction declaring a descendant of the Prophet as their protege-king. Later, the Sultanate of al-Bawariyya is ensnared in a border war with Thuringia...

    Germany could actually be a fairly good spot for kingdoms in the mold of the Maghreb's Berber dynasties. In that case, the Islamic Reich could essentially just be a northern Almoravid (ethnic nationalism) or Almohad movement (antisemitism).
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  12. Madhav Deval Well-Known Member

    Jul 3, 2018
    Islamic victory at Poitiers and tours, they end up converting the franks who in the Carolingian empire conquer Central Europe and basically go for the policy that the Mughals used in India, promoting Islam but not committing to converting entire populations, with Germanic paganism being offered dhimmi status and a religious revival movement that codifies it and framed it in terms of personal devotion and love to Baldr or someone
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  13. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Apr 24, 2018
    I'm afraid that you are a little bit confused about the time frame: by the time of the Renaissance (started in the XIV century) the Moors could not broke anywhere because after the battle of Las Novas de Tolosa (1212) their territories in Spain had been steadily shrinking. I suspect that you are talking about the battle of Poitiers in 732 (well before the Renaissance). Even if the Muslims won this battle their chances to expand all the way into Germany would be quite slim.
  14. interpoltomo please don't do coke in the bathroom

    Sep 18, 2007
    no jewish russia or pagan minority

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  15. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Apr 24, 2018
    It was a single battle called either Poitiers or Tours so there could be no "victory at Poitiers and tours" :winkytongue:

    Quite unrealistic because, outside the historic legends (ditto for Vienna), chances for the sweeping Muslim conquest of the modern France would be quite slim even in the case of a victory. Based on Aquitaine experience, it seems that they were much more interested in plunder than in a permanent conquest and conversions and, anyway, they did not have numbers big enough for such an enterprise (presumably at Poitiers Muslim side had up to 25,000). AFAIK, there were only limited conversions even in Al-Andalus: the Christians had been paying more taxes.

    Which would be unlikely if they are conquered by the Muslims.
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  16. Seandineen Member

    Oct 20, 2005
    What if the grand mufti is sort of a viceroy for Asia and the Middle East? Give him real power similar to Tojo?
  17. danteheadman Well-Known Member

    Jun 30, 2015
    That's bizarre and horrifying and I love it. You should write this TL.
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  18. snassni2 Well-Known Member

    Mar 3, 2015
  19. Byzantine fanatic Pasha of the Rumistan beylik

    Mar 19, 2015
    The Old World
    I agree. Nazism was a nativist ideology. That means it was all about promoting the interests of the "native" German folk over those of other 'rival' ethnicities, some of which were targeted for extermination.

    This is clearly incompatible with Islam, which is a universalist ideology that sweeps aside all ethnic and national differences, and allows anyone to become part of the fold, regardless of 'blood' or ethnic origin.

    By contrast, Nazism was all about 'ethnic purity' and you could not 'decide' your allegiance willingly - rather it was defined by birth.

    While Hitler did engage to some extent with the Islamic world, he did so largely as a convenient expedient, based on their hostility to the Jews and also later as a possible way to undermine rival empires, such as the British.

    Hitler's true feelings can be seen in the following quote, in 1939:

    "We will continue to stir up unrest ... in Arabia. Let us think of ourselves as masters and consider these people at best as lacquered half-monkeys who need to feel the whip."
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  20. Metropolis45 Well-Known Member

    Nov 5, 2015
    Christianity is pretty universalist, but that didn't stop Nazism from rising in a Christian nation.
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