AHC: Islamic Reich

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Deleted member 90949

Inspired by Albert Speer's claim that Hitler believed Islam was 'perfectly suited to the German temperament,' I ask you to conceive of a version of history in which a predominately Muslim German Empire founded on Germanic racial ultra-nationalism and antisemitism comes into existence.

Earliest POD is the death of Mohammad.

Bonus points if it goes to war with a Jewish Russia.

Further bonus points if there is a significant. Germanic Pagan minority.
 
This area of history isn't my forte, but I know there was some battle in the Renaissance where the Moors nearly broke through into France from al-Andalus/Iberia. Perhaps if that was successful it could expand into the western Germanic states.
 

Deleted member 90949

Can we report this post for genociding butterflies?

Why? I am not asking for Hitler and Speer to still be alive, I only mentioned that this AHC was inspired by them.

German and Russian identity both existed in some from around the time of the death of Mohammad. There is no reason states based around these identities could not exist in another timeline.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I think the easiest (and most hilarious, insofar as Nazi worlds can be hilarious) POD would have to be post-1900: namely, the Nazis win, and--contrary to what neo-nazis today believe--they turn out to really like Islam. Islamic pretentions become a cultural fad in Germany, while home-grown national socialist parties string up in the Islamic world (sort of taking the place of OTL Arab nationalism and ba'athism). A series of strong alliances between Germany and the Islamic states is concluded. Eventually, the whole "have gazillions of kids" idea only stays popular in Germany for about one generation, with the next generation having way, waaaaaay fewer kids. Germany risks the mother of all demographic traditions... and what follows is the mass immigration of a vast number of Muslims to Europe. (So that's where it gets hilarious: neo-nazis in OTL are all like "Hitler should've won, then there wouldb't be all these Muslims here!"-- but as it turns out in this ATL, Hitler winning leads to way more Muslims in Europe than in OTL.)

Anyway, Himmler was extraordinarily enamoured of Islam in OTL (granted: he saw them as a sort of warrior race that had a destiny to vanquish the Jews, so basically he was thinking of ISIS, not of mainstream Islam, but okay). Let's say that hitler kicks the bucket, but some of his lieutenants prove a little hasty when he fist has a non-fatal seizure or something... and he purges them... leaving "loyal Heinrich" in place to assume command. He could plausibly begin to encourage the idea that the "superior races" should intermingle (or some tripe like that), causing him to lay the ground-work for facilitating the mass immigration of Muslims in the future. And what did Himmler also like? Germanic paganism! So he could also encourage that, leading to a minority of dedicated SS soldiers who are neo-pagans. (There you have your pagan minority.)

Just let this develop, and giving demographic realities and the fact that Germans might genuinely come to think a highly nationalist version of Islam is great for them (leading to conversion), it becomes vaguely plausible that the reich eventually ends up with a Muslim majority... while retaining a neo-pagan minority. And there you go. I admit, it's pretty weird, and it's post-1900, but the idea of a Nazi victory bringing about a Muslim Reich is--considering the OTL neo-nazi opinion on Muslims--too ironic to ignore.
 
Ottomans win at Vienna in 1683, sometime in the early 1700s they expand into and convert Germany, the Jewish population is exiled to the PLC and Russia, hilarity ensures.
 
What about pork and alcohol? Hitler maybe thought since he was vegetarian and teetotaller, he wouldn't lose much, but other Germans might have disagreed. I know, Germans, sausages and beer are a cliche, but still.
 

Deleted member 90949

What about pork and alcohol? Hitler maybe thought since he was vegetarian and teetotaller, he wouldn't lose much, but other Germans might have disagreed. I know, Germans, sausages and beer are a cliche, but still.

Well, a point of divergence early enough to reasonably have a Muslim Germany would have to be far before the birth of Hitler. But do note that not all Muslims abstain from alcohol. Raki is a traditional Turkish alcoholic drink, and Turkey does have a number of popular beers.
 
Well, a point of divergence early enough to reasonably have a Muslim Germany would have to be far before the birth of Hitler. But do note that not all Muslims abstain from alcohol. Raki is a traditional Turkish alcoholic drink, and Turkey does have a number of popular beers.
But it's still haram.
Also racist nationalism and islam don't fit.
Only if we are talking about a sect that claims that Bilal wasn't black.
A Reich with Alqaida/Daesh ideology would be more fitting.
 
Only way I could see it happening is if the Arabic elements are stripped out, at which point it kind of ceases to be Islam in any meaningful way.
 
Have the Byzantines get conquered by the Caliphate and the Franks be derailed by... something. With the East Med conquered by Muslims and no big Christian empires in the west, Islamic missionaries have a better chance of reaching Central and Eastern Europe, and Islamic powers will be prominent trade partners. Have a war among Old Bavaria's magnates end with the victorious, mercantile, pro-Islam faction declaring a descendant of the Prophet as their protege-king. Later, the Sultanate of al-Bawariyya is ensnared in a border war with Thuringia...

Germany could actually be a fairly good spot for kingdoms in the mold of the Maghreb's Berber dynasties. In that case, the Islamic Reich could essentially just be a northern Almoravid (ethnic nationalism) or Almohad movement (antisemitism).
 
Islamic victory at Poitiers and tours, they end up converting the franks who in the Carolingian empire conquer Central Europe and basically go for the policy that the Mughals used in India, promoting Islam but not committing to converting entire populations, with Germanic paganism being offered dhimmi status and a religious revival movement that codifies it and framed it in terms of personal devotion and love to Baldr or someone
 
This area of history isn't my forte, but I know there was some battle in the Renaissance where the Moors nearly broke through into France from al-Andalus/Iberia. Perhaps if that was successful it could expand into the western Germanic states.

I'm afraid that you are a little bit confused about the time frame: by the time of the Renaissance (started in the XIV century) the Moors could not broke anywhere because after the battle of Las Novas de Tolosa (1212) their territories in Spain had been steadily shrinking. I suspect that you are talking about the battle of Poitiers in 732 (well before the Renaissance). Even if the Muslims won this battle their chances to expand all the way into Germany would be quite slim.
 
Inspired by Albert Speer's claim that Hitler believed Islam was 'perfectly suited to the German temperament,' I ask you to conceive of a version of history in which a predominately Muslim German Empire founded on Germanic racial ultra-nationalism and antisemitism comes into existence.

Earliest POD is the death of Mohammad.

Bonus points if it goes to war with a Jewish Russia.

Further bonus points if there is a significant. Germanic Pagan minority.

no jewish russia or pagan minority

67.) Islamic Germany - in which an earlier spread of Islam to North Central Asia led to Europe being overrun not only by Mongol-equivalents, but Islamic ones to boot. Although in the end the Christian states of Iberia, the British Isles, and Italy managed to break away from the Islamic-Mongol Yoke, and later liberate southern France, Northern Europe remained under Islamic rule, and over times became Islamicized, although the Sultanate of Mainz still runs about 12% Christian nowadays.

The world is dominated by Islamic powers, although the underdog but highly capitalistic Christian states have done a rather better job of imitating Islamic modernity than the Muslims of OTL have in going the other way around. Although the Germans and their North African and Scandinavian pirate allies challenged the Christians for mastery in the Atlantic, most of the Americas are Christian, colonized by the powerful British-Castilian monarchy and their Portuguese and South French allies. (There were a _number_ of colonial efforts by the Germans in the Americas, a few of which still exist today. But they did get something of a last laugh when they helped most of the BC colonies in the Americas to break away from Londres in the 19th century).

Anglo-Spanish Greater Mexico is the most important of the American states: if a bit backwards by the standards of the great Islamic powers, it is still a major industrial power. Other major states include Germany itself (includes OTL Bohemia, Poland, the Low Countries, and northern France), Islamic Rus (roughly OTL USSR less east Siberia, central Asia, and the South Caucuses), The Persian Union, Mongolia-Korea, and the sprawling mass of the “slaver state” in Africa, an Swahili-dominated dictatorship looked upon with considerable distaste by other important states. India is politically fragmented between Hindu, Muslim, and mixed states. The Balkans are a mix of small Muslim and Christian states, while Italy is a hard-headed mercantile oligarchy that has been perfectly willing to ally or kowtow to Muslim states when needed, but has always kept the fortifications on its Alpine frontiers well equipped and manned.

There have been two major wars in the last century: the first saw the collapse of the Khanate of Ind and the Turkish Empire of Rum, and the reemergence of Persia as a major power, while the second, following the breakup of the Anglo-Castilian monarchy, led to the expulsion of Russia from the Balkans and the replacement of the Khanate with a Behnamist “people’s state” (a republic, more or less, rather than the Communist dictatorship that would imply OTL), the collapse of colonial rule in much of still-Buddhist and Taoist continental East Asia and the reemergence of south China and (mostly Islamic) Nippon as independent states, the development of the first Corpuscular Bomb by the Germans (too late to use in the war) and the emergence of Greater Mexico as an important state on the world stage, and the end of the Iberian dictatorship. (Reunification with Britain is still being debated).

The Christian states tend to be oligarchic or monarchial, and although his Imperial Majesty George Arbusto of Greater Mexico is a constitutional monarch, he still has some real power. (Mexico is linguistically complicated: although “Spanglish” is the normal means of communication, Castilian is something of a prestige language, some communities are almost monolingual English, and then there are the Native Americans). It’s generally a peaceful world, although Hindu-Islamic conflicts in India, squabbles between the states of balkanized North America, and hostility between a modernizing (if not yet great-power) South China and the Mongol-Korean Empire which holds much of what it considers its historical soil still make for occasional overheated headlines - and then there’s that nastily racially and religiously divided African colossus.

Technology is roughly OTL, and it is an economically somewhat more leftist but socially more conservative world than ours: in much of the Islamic world women now have the vote, but their social roles are still on the order of women in OTL 1950s (and with much more modest clothes). It is a fairly tolerant one, Muslims and Christians getting along roughly as well as Protestants and Catholics in the late 19th century, there is little discrimination against people with a black skin, and Mexico has even allowed Jewish immigrants since the 1960s. (Alas, Eastern and Indian “Paganism” are still very much looked down upon, and both Christians and Muslims send a lot of missionaries to mainland SE Asia). Given how much of the Islamic world is located on ecologically fragile land, global warming threats are being taken rather seriously.
 
Islamic victory at Poitiers and tours,

It was a single battle called either Poitiers or Tours so there could be no "victory at Poitiers and tours" :winkytongue:


they end up converting the franks

Quite unrealistic because, outside the historic legends (ditto for Vienna), chances for the sweeping Muslim conquest of the modern France would be quite slim even in the case of a victory. Based on Aquitaine experience, it seems that they were much more interested in plunder than in a permanent conquest and conversions and, anyway, they did not have numbers big enough for such an enterprise (presumably at Poitiers Muslim side had up to 25,000). AFAIK, there were only limited conversions even in Al-Andalus: the Christians had been paying more taxes.

who in the Carolingian empire conquer Central Europe

Which would be unlikely if they are conquered by the Muslims.
 
I think the easiest (and most hilarious, insofar as Nazi worlds can be hilarious) POD would have to be post-1900: namely, the Nazis win, and--contrary to what neo-nazis today believe--they turn out to really like Islam. Islamic pretentions become a cultural fad in Germany, while home-grown national socialist parties string up in the Islamic world (sort of taking the place of OTL Arab nationalism and ba'athism). A series of strong alliances between Germany and the Islamic states is concluded. Eventually, the whole "have gazillions of kids" idea only stays popular in Germany for about one generation, with the next generation having way, waaaaaay fewer kids. Germany risks the mother of all demographic traditions... and what follows is the mass immigration of a vast number of Muslims to Europe. (So that's where it gets hilarious: neo-nazis in OTL are all like "Hitler should've won, then there wouldb't be all these Muslims here!"-- but as it turns out in this ATL, Hitler winning leads to way more Muslims in Europe than in OTL.)

Anyway, Himmler was extraordinarily enamoured of Islam in OTL (granted: he saw them as a sort of warrior race that had a destiny to vanquish the Jews, so basically he was thinking of ISIS, not of mainstream Islam, but okay). Let's say that hitler kicks the bucket, but some of his lieutenants prove a little hasty when he fist has a non-fatal seizure or something... and he purges them... leaving "loyal Heinrich" in place to assume command. He could plausibly begin to encourage the idea that the "superior races" should intermingle (or some tripe like that), causing him to lay the ground-work for facilitating the mass immigration of Muslims in the future. And what did Himmler also like? Germanic paganism! So he could also encourage that, leading to a minority of dedicated SS soldiers who are neo-pagans. (There you have your pagan minority.)

Just let this develop, and giving demographic realities and the fact that Germans might genuinely come to think a highly nationalist version of Islam is great for them (leading to conversion), it becomes vaguely plausible that the reich eventually ends up with a Muslim majority... while retaining a neo-pagan minority. And there you go. I admit, it's pretty weird, and it's post-1900, but the idea of a Nazi victory bringing about a Muslim Reich is--considering the OTL neo-nazi opinion on Muslims--too ironic to ignore.

That's bizarre and horrifying and I love it. You should write this TL.
 
But it's still haram.
Also racist nationalism and islam don't fit.
Only if we are talking about a sect that claims that Bilal wasn't black.
A Reich with Alqaida/Daesh ideology would be more fitting.

I agree. Nazism was a nativist ideology. That means it was all about promoting the interests of the "native" German folk over those of other 'rival' ethnicities, some of which were targeted for extermination.

This is clearly incompatible with Islam, which is a universalist ideology that sweeps aside all ethnic and national differences, and allows anyone to become part of the fold, regardless of 'blood' or ethnic origin.

By contrast, Nazism was all about 'ethnic purity' and you could not 'decide' your allegiance willingly - rather it was defined by birth.

While Hitler did engage to some extent with the Islamic world, he did so largely as a convenient expedient, based on their hostility to the Jews and also later as a possible way to undermine rival empires, such as the British.

Hitler's true feelings can be seen in the following quote, in 1939:

"We will continue to stir up unrest ... in Arabia. Let us think of ourselves as masters and consider these people at best as lacquered half-monkeys who need to feel the whip."
 
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