AHC: improve the timing & production numbers of the 'Eurocanards'

[tomo pauk]

... that is mostly applicable to the programs that eventualy gave DA Rafale and EF Typhoon, tough the Grippen is not excluded.
Basically, a task is to propose changes to those two programs in order to have them enter production and service much earlier than in OTL, while sarificing as less of capabilities as possble. Production numbers would obviously mean that alternative Eurocanards have much better export record, here a cheaper aircraft is in advantage vs. more expensive. Better exports also lower the price for countries in participating in production and/or end-montage.
Usage of American-designed aircraft as base is prohibited for this thread, apart as inspiration.

 

[The Wooksta!]

As far as the timing of the EF Typhoon, have Thatcher tell Kohl to stop prevaricating and sign for the bloody aircraft sooner!

Or have the UK going alone with an in service EAP - it was largely a Tornado back end with a new wing and front end.

Plenty of nice alternate canard designs from the UK dating from the late 70s onwards.

 

[tomo pauk]

...
Plenty of nice alternate canard designs from the UK dating from the late 70s onwards.

Please, do tell (I know you know the stuff)

 

[The Wooksta!]

A flip through Tony Buttler's British Secret Projects: Jet Fighters since 1950 reveals quite a few.

Offhand, the BAe Warton tilt engine P.103 (1978), the European Collaborative fighter(ECF) undertaken with Germany (12.79) and the European Combat Aircraft (ECA) from 1980. BAE Warton's P106 from 1980 to that spec also had canards The P.110 to AST.403 (3.81) looks much like a twin engined Grippen.

I'll also throw in the HSA HS.1202, which looks very MiG in design.

But the earliest? Had the Supermarine Type 559 got through F.155T AND Sandys had fallen over drunk before finalising his white paper, it may well have seen service in the 60s.

 

[tomo pauk]

A flip through Tony Buttler's British Secret Projects: Jet Fighters since 1950 reveals quite a few.

Offhand, the BAe Warton tilt engine P.103 (1978), the European Collaborative fighter(ECF) undertaken with Germany (12.79) and the European Combat Aircraft (ECA) from 1980. BAE Warton's P106 from 1980 to that spec also had canards The P.110 to AST.403 (3.81) looks much like a twin engined Grippen.

I'll also throw in the HSA HS.1202, which looks very MiG in design.

But the earliest? Had the Supermarine Type 559 got through F.155T AND Sandys had fallen over drunk before finalising his white paper, it may well have seen service in the 60s.

Thank you for the heads-up.
The BAe P.106 realy looks to have plenty of export potential, usage of one engine instead of two is a main money-saver from design, production and use/maintnenace points of view. Perhaps go with ~80 kN engine at 1st, later install ~100 kN engine, plus steps toward lower observability, not unlike the MDD did it with Super Hornet.
HSA HS.1202 looks like front end of the Eurofighter, rest being a F-16XL*, or something along the lines of the IAI Lavi. Again a major export potential, hopefully starting with a ~100 kN engine, later with ~130 kN.
The good deal of Tornado fuselage + delta/canard configuration also looks promissing, since it can keep Germany and Italy in the loop. Italy can phase out their F-104s much earlier, Germany doesn't need to upgrade their fleet of F-4s post-1990, once MiG-29s are acquired from former GDR they can sell out those in a hartbeat (leaving a few for training).

*actually it resembled the F-16 with twin fins

 

[Cryhavoc101]

What largely held these designs back IMO was the Peace Dividend - the 10 years following the falling of the Berlin wall and effective collapse of the Warsaw Pact

Perhaps have the Hoff assassinated by a rogue faction of the Stasi and his music not reaching and touching the hearts of the masses of East Berliner and inflaming the fires of 'Freedom' in East Germany

The Cold war goes on for some further years as a result and these Eurocanard aircraft projects are not delayed as a result.

 

[tomo pauk]

What largely held these designs back IMO was the Peace Dividend - the 10 years following the falling of the Berlin wall and effective collapse of the Warsaw Pact
...

There was a good deal of politics involved years before the fall of the Warsaw Pact - like the French deciding to go their own way, plus Germany not making a firm decision for years. Having two expensive projects in the same time, to serve realytively small European airforces will be hard on budgets of 1980s, let alone 1990s. If the Frech hoped that two-engined multi-role fighter will be as attractive for foreign buyers as the Mirages were, they were probably drinking too much of Cool-aid.

 

[tomo pauk]

The French (Dassault) entered negotiations with ex-Yu in order to co-design the 'Novi avion' ('New aircraft') for the JRV. article
transparent view
After some time, the configuration of intake was chaged, from F-16-like to Rafale-like. picture
The project did not progressed from paper stage.

 

[Archibald]

French armies were really starved of funding after 1991. I can't see how could the Rafale program go faster. First Rafale entered service in May 2001 with the Aéronavale and a very limited F1 standard.
Now the Typhoon, that's another matter. Supposedly, the alliance of four countries was to help with the budget issues. Well... it did not not. Germany dragged its feet.

 

[Archibald]

Saddam hussein is run over by a truck in 1977, Iraq never declares war to Iran in 1980, and buy Mirage 4000s in 1980.

Saudi Arabia follows in quick succession, after Israel lobbied the U.S Congress for Saudia Arabia never get more than 60 F-15s (it really happened OTL, hence the Tornado ADVs; and Dassault very nearly got a 4000 deal with Saudi Arabia in 1988, hence the paint job on the photo below).

In 1982 the Armée de l'Air scrap some money to buy 18 aircrafts to replace the Mirage IV in nuclear strike and strategic reconnaissance role (no Mirage 2000N).

This help Dassault a little, and they manage to get a slightly modified 4000 in place of both EFA and Rafale in 1985.

The aircraft enters service in 1989 with France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy and Spain.

 

[tomo pauk]

At 1st, I was thinking 'no, too expensive', but then it will be no more expensive than F-18, EF or Rafale.
Second generation (say, from late '90s) gets low-observability intakes, 2D thrust vectoring, perhaps bigger canards, certainly could use more power (2 x ~100 kN?), fancier radar, HCMS, plus better missiles.

 

[Archibald]

The trick is that the major front expense is paid by Gulf states - Iraq and Saudia Arabia, with all their petro-dollars. Then France pays his due (a little serie of aircrafts). So not that expensive.

The missiles were Magic 2 but the Super 530F (= Sparrow) was planned. Later MICA (AMRAAM). There was plenty of room in that big nose for an up-to-date radar.

The M53 turbofans were a little weak, so EJ-200s would be welcome. The 4000 would have been one hell of a bomb and missile truck, it was bigger than a Rafale and when compared to a F-15E there was more room for hardpoints below that large delta wing. I think there was 14 hardpoints !

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Some ideas, not sure if they are quite what you are asking but would boost production numbers

Get a Harrier III approved somehow, this gets the VTOL out of the JSF program, and gets Italy and the UK not to buy the *JSF, and get some extra Typhoons as a stopgap until some future 5th gen VTOL down the road

Avoid the war on terror, to avoid the mobilization of the antiwar movement and defense dollars getting pulled into COIN, also has knock on effects in probably getting tougher finance regs (absent 9/11 Enron was the biggest story in Fall 2001), making a milder great recession. This way when the Russian bear awakes more money goes to defense, and European countries replace their cold war era fighters faster, selling more of all three canards in Europe

US pulls an early pivot to Asia with an early thaw to Iran and gets a bee up its bonnet about Gulf State Human rights abuses, need no GWOT for this. As such Iran has cash to rearm earlier, scaring the Gulf States into a spending spree, with thte US having more concern most orders go to Typhoon and Rafale, though the US gets some, mainly to countries who want to spread out their supply chain in case of embargo (see OTL Qatar buying F-15, Rafale and Typhoon)

Have the PRC acquire a bunch of Backfires when the USSR falls, and higher tensions with the US, so the USN decides it needs Phoenix, so Super Tomcat rather than Super Hornet, Super Tomcat is costlier so less faffing about with Super Hornet when countries choose new aircraft to replace F-18s. Combine this with internal politics ruling out *JSF for same reason as OTL and Canada buys Eurofighters to replace the Hornet

HAL Tejas goes really bad, with lots of civilian casualties from crashes. India decides it really needs the MMRCA so lets Dassualt supervise the Indian production line, deal goes through 126+ Rafales for India. India also chooses to license build the Gripen as a single engine counterpart for their Hi-Med-Low mix

 

[tomo pauk]

The trick is that the major front expense is paid by Gulf states - Iraq and Saudia Arabia, with all their petro-dollars. Then France pays his due (a little serie of aircrafts). So not that expensive.

Not unlike the way the British army got their Challenger tanks - Iran paid plenty for development.

The missiles were Magic 2 but the Super 530F (= Sparrow) was planned. Later MICA (AMRAAM). There was plenty of room in that big nose for an up-to-date radar.

The M53 turbofans were a little weak, so EJ-200s would be welcome. The 4000 would have been one hell of a bomb and missile truck, it was bigger than a Rafale and when compared to a F-15E there was more room for hardpoints below that large delta wing. I think there was 14 hardpoints !

The thing with Mirage 4000 for other countries, especially those that produce Tornado, might be that a proposal that uses Tornado as parts donor (obvoiusly fuselage parts) is even more economically atractive. It too has big nose for radar, can be turned into 1-seater for more fuel and/or electronics, uses turbofan engines, EJ 200 is in the pipeline, the air intakes are more modern (for flight in high angle of attack state). It will take months to set up production of parts in the Panavia-countries, vs. years for the Mirage 4000 in those countries.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

There was a good deal of politics involved years before the fall of the Warsaw Pact - like the French deciding to go their own way, plus Germany not making a firm decision for years. Having two expensive projects in the same time, to serve realytively small European airforces will be hard on budgets of 1980s, let alone 1990s. If the Frech hoped that two-engined multi-role fighter will be as attractive for foreign buyers as the Mirages were, they were probably drinking too much of Cool-aid.

Indeed but the 10 years of 'peace' starting in 91 allowed many nations to reduce military spending and in Germanys case shift funding to the fomer East Germany

Had this not happened and the Cold war dragged on then those aircraft were required to replace those aircraft then reaching obsolescence

 

[tomo pauk]

Indeed but the 10 years of 'peace' starting in 91 allowed many nations to reduce military spending and in Germanys case shift funding to the fomer East Germany

Had this not happened and the Cold war dragged on then those aircraft were required to replace those aircraft then reaching obsolescence

Moving in fast and/or cheaper track, whether by using Tornado as basis or 1-engined job would've perhaps allowed for production start before 1990, thus once peace dividends arise one can start taking more care for exports with actual aircraft, plus as I've noted before replacing F-4, F-104 and MiG 29 in 'Tornado countries'. Export in Finland and/or Spain instead of them buying F-18. India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, United Arab Emirates, perhaps even Australia and Pakistan (provided Indians drag their feet). In the mean time prepare 'Tranche 2' - more emphasis to low observability, maneuverability (thrust vectoring), more non-aluminium materials etc - to offer it to both domestic and foreign customers (add Norway, Hungary, Czech Republic, plus Sout American coutries that have a bit of money).

 

[Wimble Toot]

Seeing as the SAAB 37 Viggen first flew in 1967 and entered service in 1971, I'm not sure how much more early you could get.

Get this 1982 British Aerospace design funded and built by the end of 1980s would help in Britain's case, to replace the Jaguar and Buccaneer

or failing that, the EAP

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Moving in fast and/or cheaper track, whether by using Tornado as basis or 1-engined job would've perhaps allowed for production start before 1990, thus once peace dividends arise one can start taking more care for exports with actual aircraft, plus as I've noted before replacing F-4, F-104 and MiG 29 in 'Tornado countries'. Export in Finland and/or Spain instead of them buying F-18. India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, United Arab Emirates, perhaps even Australia and Pakistan (provided Indians drag their feet). In the mean time prepare 'Tranche 2' - more emphasis to low observability, maneuverability (thrust vectoring), more non-aluminium materials etc - to offer it to both domestic and foreign customers (add Norway, Hungary, Czech Republic, plus Sout American coutries that have a bit of money).

Yes so the original EAP - same RB199 derivative based on the engines used on the Tornado - same radar and as far as possible same avionics and Foxhunter Radar as the Tornado ADV - I even think they used the same vertical stab as the Tornado in the test bed - so hey ho why not.

Possibly in Squadron service by mid 90s with an ongoing cold war?

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes so the original EAP - same RB199 derivative based on the engines used on the Tornado - same radar and as far as possible same avionics and Foxhunter Radar as the Tornado ADV - I even think they used the same vertical stab as the Tornado in the test bed - so hey ho why not.

Possibly in Squadron service by mid 90s with an ongoing cold war?

Hopefully by early 1990s even with Cold War end.

 

[Just Leo]

How much do we know about the EAP? It has the same RB-199 engines noted for lack of high altitude performance. The range never came up. It never carried real weapons, and I'm unsure it carried Foxhunter, but it did receive an avionics upgrade. With a few more years development, could it become a dog-fighting short-range Tornado worth cancelling Typhoon?