AHC: Have a Ratte Used In Combat
- Thread starter Gosing
- Start date
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
Oh those things, I thought you meant those big heavy, wheeled vehicles you saw in the Kashyyyk assault in Ep. III.
I was thinking that they would let it get in firing range simply because no one would believe that Jerry would ever try such a thing. Once its massive shells start crashing down, though, it will get drowned under Yak/Typhoon/Mustang squadrons.
NothingNow
Banned
Well, to be fair, the P.1000 definitely could maybe take on a Bolo Mk III (300 tonnes) and win, assuming it can move fast enough that a couple of Tallboys don't do it in. A Bolo Mk IV or Mk V could definitely take it on and win.
As for the P.1500, well, Gustav and Dora were fairly useful railway guns, considering how much blam they could deliver per round, and the relative speed of reloading. The need for an AA Battalion, and the absurd cost is what did them in really. But put them on a self-propelled carriage, and add armor to it? It gets to be somewhat near reasonable from a manpower standpoint (comparatively.)
Incidentally, at the above estimated ground pressure (5 psi,) the P.1500, is slightly more than 1/2 that of a standing adult male (~8 Psi,) and slightly less than a third of that of a walking male (~16 Psi.)
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loughery111
Banned
Well, to be fair, the P.1000 definitely could maybe take on a Bolo Mk III (300 tonnes) and win, assuming it can move fast enough that a couple of Tallboys don't do it in. A Bolo Mk IV or Mk V could definitely take it on and win.
As for the P.1500, well, Gustav and Dora were fairly useful railway guns, considering how much blam they could deliver per round, and the relative speed of reloading. The need for an AA Battalion, and the absurd cost is what did them in really. But put them on a self-propelled carriage, and add armor to it? It gets to be somewhat near reasonable from a manpower standpoint (comparatively.)
Incidentally, at the above estimated ground pressure (5 psi,) the P.1500, is slightly more than 1/2 that of a standing adult male (~8 Psi,) and slightly less than a third of that of a walking male (~16 Psi.)
Why do you say the first thing there? The damned thing, virtually immobile as it is, will be shot to pieces by an advanced penetrator round from outside it's effective (1940's targeting and turret articulation systems, really?) range. The Bolo Mk. III mounts a 150 mm gun that will rip through the Ratte lengthwise like tissue paper; it's debatable whether or not its railguns will penetrate, but it's a moot point; there's no way in hell that the Ratte would ever land a hit with its 280 mm guns before the 150 mm gun alone does it in.
And as for the second part, it's still a whopping big target for an enemy with air superiority at the tactical and strategic level; nothing more, nothing less. I mean... really?
NothingNow
Banned
I wasn't really awake, and rather underestimated the firepower of the 150mm gun.
Yeah, but if it's got that lucky shot. Plus, I think the compartmentalization in the Ratte, might slow the penetration after a good few bulkheads.
That's extremely true, however, it's still vaguely sane and well protected compared to Gustav and Dora. Not to mention a good deal more mobile on a tactical level.
Hkelukka
Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket-wheel_excavator
I could see someone mounting 300mm cannons to something like this and driving it around. Utterly insane ofcourse but hey, its ASB!
I could see someone mounting 300mm cannons to something like this and driving it around. Utterly insane ofcourse but hey, its ASB!
loughery111
Banned
No worries, but I think you generally underestimate the degree to which a modern electronics, targeting, and sensory package would allow even an Abrams to rip one of these things to shreds. I have almost full confidence that if they actually HIT an opposing vehicle as quick as a modern MBT or the Mk. III, it will be blind bloody luck.
As for the last bit... yea, this is true; but it's still basically a poorly protected, semi-mobile bunker, with huge guns that I can't really conceive of a purpose for. At least with the Monster, an 800 mm indirect-fire weapon has some uses, though it's far from efficient... what the hell you would need a 280 mm direct-fire one for is beyond me. Anything it can destroy can also be destroyed with a much smaller gun or otherwise is immobile and can be pounded to rubble by artillery.
NothingNow
Banned
The Armor on the thing (and it's size) makes me doubt the Ability of an Abrams (105 or 120mm) or even a Challenger 2 or Leo 2A6 to full on kill this thing. Punch a ton of holes in bits of it and knock out the secondary weapons or Plumbing yes. But barring a lucky shot making it to a Magazine or nailing an engine or the transmission, I doubt it'll be able to get anything more than a mobility kill. (And then comes the Arty, which will finish it off, even if it means resorting to something like a W48 or W79 Warhead.)
Same here.
It'll also scare the crap out of anyone who hears the damned thing come down, and has seen the odd 10 meter deep by 10 meter wide craters with bits of metal surrounding them for a good half a kilometer. But it really is a Siege weapon, like the Karl-Gerat mortars and the Sturmpanzer.
That's true. They'd be better off just building the P.1500, and a smaller cousin to fit the 28cm K5, which ideally shouldn't weigh more than 500 Tonnes, and should have decent AA protection (a mix of Flakpanzer IV turrets, and maybe some 8.8cm FlaK guns or 12.8cm FlaK 40s) with DP Autocannons and maybe four 8.8cm Kwk 36 or 8.8cm Kwk 44, for just in case.
loughery111
Banned
The Armor on the thing (and it's size) makes me doubt the Ability of an Abrams (105 or 120mm) or even a Challenger 2 or Leo 2A6 to full on kill this thing. Punch a ton of holes in bits of it and knock out the secondary weapons or Plumbing yes. But barring a lucky shot making it to a Magazine or nailing an engine or the transmission, I doubt it'll be able to get anything more than a mobility kill. (And then comes the Arty, which will finish it off, even if it means resorting to something like a W48 or W79 Warhead.)
Same here.
It'll also scare the crap out of anyone who hears the damned thing come down, and has seen the odd 10 meter deep by 10 meter wide craters with bits of metal surrounding them for a good half a kilometer. But it really is a Siege weapon, like the Karl-Gerat mortars and the Sturmpanzer.
That's true. They'd be better off just building the P.1500, and a smaller cousin to fit the 28cm K5, which ideally shouldn't weigh more than 500 Tonnes, and should have decent AA protection (a mix of Flakpanzer IV turrets, and maybe some 8.8cm FlaK guns or 12.8cm FlaK 40s) with DP Autocannons and maybe four 8.8cm Kwk 36 or 8.8cm Kwk 44, for just in case.
For the first, the problem, at least as pertains the American equipment, is that DU is pyrophoric; it lights on fire spontaneously in dust form, and evidence suggests that a DU penetrator will first punch into a tank, then ricochet around the inside distributing dust everywhere and acting like a blender for crew and vital systems. It's generally designed to get in, but not back out; this is a bad thing for the inside of the tank. I doubt it would take more than 4 or 5 hits to cover most of the compartments with 1500 degree ultra-toxic dust. No crew, no tank.
Anyway, moving on, the middle part I agree with completely; siege and psychological weapon, definitely. And for the last, I'd say that a 280 mm direct fire weapon is utterly useless in land combat, period. If you want to make the thing at least vaguely usable, have it mount four or more 128 mm guns in fast-rotating turrets with full gunnery crews. Even there, it still makes sense to build four much smaller and cheaper platforms for the same crews and the same guns. Size is simply not an advantage here; you can't hide it, you can't get it hull-down, and it cannot be sufficiently armored everywhere.
NothingNow
Banned
Damn.
Um, The Krupp K5 series is a Railway gun, not a Direct-fire weapon, so it'd be a lesser P.1500, built to protect a rather useful and valuable asset, while providing something that isn't as vulnerable as a bloody railway carriage. (Because there is no way in hell you're really going to hide something like a railway gun, so you might as well make it as intimidating a target as possible, even if it's mostly a bluff.)
Yet again, on the rest of it, I agree whole heartedly.
loughery111
Banned
1.
2. Hm. Makes more sense, but one still suspects that conventional weaponry makes vastly more sense under almost any imaginable circumstances. As a case in point, were the Monster constructed in Berlin in early 1944 (say it departs March 1st, assuming a top speed of 9 mph and engine uptime of 20% (generous in the extreme, most likely), it would take almost two weeks to drive to the front, assuming a method of crossing rivers is found, and would almost immediately be abandoned for inability to keep up in a retreat.
NothingNow
Banned
True. It's pretty much useless except for set-piece and Siege warfare. The Mini-Monster is a hell of a lot more practical (and faster and cheaper per unit, maybe getting a top speed of 15mph.) Of course, the Buffett to get it into production must, in accordance to the Goering square law be about 6 to 7x more lavish.
True. It's pretty much useless except for set-piece and Siege warfare. The Mini-Monster is a hell of a lot more practical (and faster and cheaper per unit, maybe getting a top speed of 15mph.) Of course, the Buffett to get it into production must, in accordance to the Goering square law be about 6 to 7x more lavish.
Is this like feature creep, only with a fetish for impracticality?
NothingNow
Banned
The Goering Square Law? Nope. It's just a joke about German Defense procurement in the period in question. Here's the basis for it
That has to be the funniest, and most likely truest depiction of Goering I've ever seen haha!
Snake Featherston
Banned
Godzilla rises from the Baltic Sea? I mean FFS, what kind of pills was Dr. Morrel *feeding* Hitler?
OK, here goes. Hitler decides to alter plan Z and an extra 280mm gun is made for a German cruiser which, subsequently, is only partly built in 1941 before being scrapped. Hitler sees this and decides to make a tank out of one of the sections of the ship, which is completed in late 1943. It is sent to the Eastern Front to try to break the Leningrad siege and manages to break a part of the front line before being knocked out handily by Soviet *naval batteries*. Leningrad still holds out against the Nazis. Afterwards Hitler decides to make five more but none are finished as the only factory that can house the machinery to make them becomes a high-priority target for Allied bombing. The war ends with little other difference from our timeline.