AHC: Crown an 'Emperor of the Netherlands'

[yeetboy]

What about if it was Emperor of the Dutch not necessarily the Netherland? Could that work?

That can work, I'm just interested in a scenario where a monarch ruling over the Netherlands region as his primary title could get enough prestige to be crowned as an emperor.

I think OP wants the Netherlands as an european empire, not overseas one.

The 'emperor of Indonesia' approach may work but as mentioned before I don't think Indonesia has any empire to dethrone to install the Dutch in to the place of, let alone owning a piece of Africa definitely wouldn't give the Netherlands any claim to emperorship.

The title Emperor of the British Isles was offered to George III during the unification with Ireland, but he opted against it. By the 19th century, proclaiming yourself an Emperor couldn't have been that taboo.


I think at the very least the Dutch realm has to be a bit larger. The Dutch pushed for the Northern Rhineland at Vienna but didn't succeed. Perhaps they're successful there, resulting in North Rhineland and the Principality of Orangeassau becoming part of the Netherlands.

Down the line the Dutch get into a kerfuffle with Prussia and the Netherlands seizes Westphalia from Prussia. The Dutch King, aware of his increasingly diverse nation (Walloons and Flemings and Hollanders and Rhinelanders and Luxembourgers and Hessians and Westphalians oh my!) proclaims the United Empire of All the Netherlands, Rhineland, Westphalia, and Nassau... referred to as the Netherlands or the Dutch for short.

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I could only seeing this work with the previously mentioned heir of Burgundy becoming the de facto HRE emperor after successive generations. The Netherlands would definitely be much larger than the current timeline counterparts, but they would still be smaller than Prussia who was still styling themselves as a Kingdom.

 

[Mort the Reaper]

The 'emperor of Indonesia' approach may work but as mentioned before I don't think Indonesia has any empire to dethrone to install the Dutch in to the place of, let alone owning a piece of Africa definitely wouldn't give the Netherlands any claim to emperorship.

Couldn't they claim to be the successors of the Majapahit empire?

 

[EnvarKadri]

Couldn't they claim to be the successors of the Majapahit empire?

They could, if there was a living Majapahit emperor they could take the crown from like Victoria took the Mughal one.

 

[WilliamOfOckham]

Easiest way is probably have the Dutch monarch also be Emperor of Indonesia, like how the British were Emperors of India.

Emperor of "Malaya", "the Malay Archipelago", or "Insulindia" rather than Indonesia. "Indonesia" is a more modern designation and one which the Dutch did not want to adopt.

 

[Atterdag]

Emperor of "Malaya", "the Malay Archipelago", or "Insulindia" rather than Indonesia. "Indonesia" is a more modern designation and one which the Dutch did not want to adopt.

Emperor of Malaya would likely shake some british georgies

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

The problem is that OTL Netherlands was too republican. It only became a kingdom because republics were disliked in 1815. I think the Netherlands at least needs more of a monarchical tradition. It needs to be a monarchy from the start.

Maybe Elisabeth I actualy accepts the crown of the Netherlands during the Dutch revolt. The Anglo-Dutch consolodates the Netherlands and expands into Germany including capturing Aachen. The HRE gets into trouble and is more or less disbanded (probably during this timeline's the variant of the thirty year war, because of the involvement of England. This is probably the moment they manage to capture som German lands bordering the Netherlands). The Austrians still claim the imperial crown, but in the 18th century they fall to a republican revolution. Because the Netherlands (still united with England) is the only main power left iin the area, the king of the Netherlands (and England) decides to proclaim himself (or herself, I don't care) emperor in Aachen.

^This, nuff said.

Easiest way is probably have the Dutch monarch also be Emperor of Indonesia, like how the British were Emperors of India.

The title of Emperor doesn't just land on the head of monarchs with a lot of land. The Hohenzollern and Habsburg took it by claiming to be the successors of the Holy Roman Empire. The russians claimed it by proclaiming themselves third Rome and successors of the Eastern Roman Empire. And Napoleon proclaimed himself Emperor by making an analogy of the french republic with the roman one. So the idea of emperorship in Europe steams from the romans and by proclaiming yourself that you claim a symbolic heritage. Proclaiming yourself emperor outside of europe is easier as europeans associated the term empire with large realms outside europe. Thats why you could go proclaiming yourself emperor of Brazil/Mexico/India without any relations with roman heritage.

By that technicality, you could claim the Dutch monarch to claim themselves successors to the Majahpahit Emperors (even though that would be a bit debatable, I dunno if the Majahpahits viewed themselves as emperors themselves. I don't know jack about the history of the Indonesian Islands to make that case.)

 

[Nivek]

this one counts? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AnAlternateHistoryOfTheNetherlands

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If a descendant of Charles the Bold becomes an emperor (Charles V) he is an emperor of the HRE and so are his descendants who end up as the Austrian Hapsburgs. Analogy is not working because they did have a huge hereditary empire which included at least 2 kingdoms (Bohemia and Hungary). Plus, they had a legacy of a different imperial title. Describe a scenario (with the specifics) in which ruler of the Netherlands possesses something of the kind and your case may work.

Easy. Maximilian and Marie have two sons, or Max has a son from his second marriage. Philippe le Bel inherits Burgundy and gets a transferred electoral vote (Maximilian tried to buy the Bohemian elector's vote over and turn Burgundy into an electorate IIRC). Phil still predeceases Max, so rather than electing Phil's underage son, they elect his (half-)brother. Said brother's line rules the empire until extinction with intermarriage between the two branches à la OTL between Spain and Austria.
When the imperial Habsburgs go extinct, their Burgundian cousins claim the title (but don't necessarily get it) and as a result the king of the Netherlands/Burgundy has an imperial style.

 

[alexmilman]

Easy. Maximilian and Marie have two sons, or Max has a son from his second marriage. Philippe le Bel inherits Burgundy and gets a transferred electoral vote (Maximilian tried to buy the Bohemian elector's vote over and turn Burgundy into an electorate IIRC). Phil still predeceases Max, so rather than electing Phil's underage son, they elect his (half-)brother. Said brother's line rules the empire until extinction with intermarriage between the two branches à la OTL between Spain and Austria.
When the imperial Habsburgs go extinct, their Burgundian cousins claim the title (but don't necessarily get it) and as a result the king of the Netherlands/Burgundy has an imperial style.

IIRC, the OP required the title to be Emperor of the Netherlands. In your scenario it is still an emperor of the HRE.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

IIRC, the OP required the title to be Emperor of the Netherlands. In your scenario it is still an emperor of the HRE.

The next step is to do what the last Emperor of the HREGN did IOTL, proclaim himself emperor of his central realm.
In this case, the Netherlands, Empire of the Netherlands ruled by the Emperor of the Netherlands.

 

[alexmilman]

The next step is to do what the last Emperor of the HREGN did IOTL, proclaim himself emperor of his central realm.
In this case, the Netherlands, Empire of the Netherlands ruled by the Emperor of the Netherlands.

The Netherlands as a “center” of a realm that is an European empire is rather unexpected idea but if you insist I have no objections.

 

[Višeslav]

Bruh, I read this as "Emperor of the Neanderthals".

Deepest apologies to any Dutch people, I don`t see you as ape men. Don't worry.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Charles V is more attached to the land of his birth and decides that Spain and Austria should be governed from Brussels.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The next step is to do what the last Emperor of the HREGN did IOTL, proclaim himself emperor of his central realm.
In this case, the Netherlands, Empire of the Netherlands ruled by the Emperor of the Netherlands.

This is what I was essentially going for, yes.

 

[Vnix]

Considering that the British only got the title after dethroning the Mughals, is there anyone the Dutch can dethrone to claim the Emperorship of Indonesia?

the Kings of Kings on Java should suffice, or just the fact that it conquered all the local kings and just a large region. More than enough to claim an Emperorship imho.

Best way though would be with a bigger Dutch colonial empire which become independent countries in a larger Empire similarly to the current Kingdom or the Commonwealth.

Another way would take a very early POD and prevent the split between the Dutch and German peoples, have the main seat of the Emperor of the HRE move (back) towards Nassau and then onward to Brussels and have the English term "Dutch" mean both German and Dutch in the modern sense

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

If it has to be Continental Europe, I feel like a Burgundy wank is the best possible approach

I suppose an option is a Burgundian duke having bestowed upon them the title of King of Lotharingia and then elected king of Germany. From then, they receive the title, Emperor of Rome. Assuming Burgundy has a capital within the Benelux, this would achieve the point.

 

[isabella]

@alexmilman @Kellan Sullivan: your kind of scenario can work with a slight twist:
a) Habsburgs never inherit Spain
b) Ferdinand (and not Charles) inherit Spain after the death of Ferdinand of Aragon
c) Maria (and not Philip) inherited Netherlands
d) Isabella married early to Ernest (or married Albert shortly after his death) and they had a surviving son
In all of this scenarios we can easily have an Holy Roman Emperor who will have his main seat in Netherlands (the whole Netherlands aka more or less the actual Benelux) instead of Austria and if for some reason the HRE will be dismissed (for any reason) we will have an analogue of ATL Franz II calling himself Emperor of Netherlands instead of Emperor of Austria.

This will work?

 

[yeetboy]

Would this continental based Netherlands ever maintain a similar colonial empire like OTL’s United Provinces or would the finances of the Empire be focused on securing electoral votes and defending the HRE?

 

[isabella]

Would this continental based Netherlands ever maintain a similar colonial empire like OTL’s United Provinces or would the finances of the Empire be focused on securing electoral votes and defending the HRE?

Is possible, specially in the first two cases

 

[Višeslav]

Easiest way is probably have the Dutch monarch also be Emperor of Indonesia, like how the British were Emperors of India.

Considering that the British only got the title after dethroning the Mughals, is there anyone the Dutch can dethrone to claim the Emperorship of Indonesia?

This is pretty plausible. They would likely either use the title of Emperor of Majapahit or Srivijaya (to draw upon the legitimacy of former regional empires) or Emperor of the East Indies (less likely, since the Dutch didn't like the idea of calling Nusantara Indonesia, since it means Indian Archipelago, and they don't want to call their colony a part of (British) India. Yes. This was a real problem OTL).