AHC: Alternative Industrializations?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Kerney, Oct 3, 2019.

  1. Albrecht Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2019
    In my opinion, getting to the Age of Enlightenment is the biggest step here. From there to the Industrial revolution is very easy.
     
  2. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2019
    How large would it specifically be though. I think we need a hybrid approach to climate change.
     
  3. Albrecht Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2019
    These methods are not suited to fight climate change. You cant simply push down bio matter and hope for it to be fossilized soon. Its also the Geothermal power at play beneath the surface. Such fossilizations take millions or even at best thousands of years. Why not just use the Geothermal power directly, instead?
     
    Kerney likes this.
  4. Kerney defender of low probability atls everywhere

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Location:
    Earth
    Is Enlightenment needed in some of the slow burn scenarios suggested or if the dominant faith doesn't claim to have a monopoly on truth?

    Example: Njord's daughters play in the stream while we drop in Thor's hammer to turn the turbine in the hydro electric "Thor Powered" electric plant. After is all, electricity is a manifestation of Thor. And if our visitors from India see Shiva's power being unleashed, that's true too I guess.
     
  5. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2019
    I'm not talking about fossilization but reducing carbon emissions which permaculture seems like it can do.
     
  6. Albrecht Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2019
    Enlightenment doesn't necessarily mean religion getting weaker among the masses. This cannot happen as Science cannot by itself, claim a monopoly over Truth. Its a false equation. Science can be worked on irrespective of the religiousity of the masses. Enlightenment needs a good flow of information which can be availed through contact and expansion.
     
    Kerney likes this.
  7. Albrecht Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2019
    Can you explain?
     
  8. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2019
    Climate change is caused by excess carbon emissions (to my knowledge). Permaculture can sequester carbon emissions and let us adapt to the new climate.
     
    Kerney likes this.
  9. Windows95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2017
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Maybe if Mu'tazilis are not as brutal and dictatorial as OTL... Then we can have industrialization. If al-Ghazali's influenced is reduced (Mu'tazilism is more popular), unrestricted progress in the scientific method is possible. Shifting patronage from the arts to science for military purposes might help too. Contact with China with their gunpowder might help, with charcoal to burn for energy.
     
  10. EmperorOfTheNorthSea Cnut? You haven't seen a REAL North Sea Empire

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Location:
    Pennsylvania unfortunately(rip NC)
    Well I have always been under the impression that an industrial revolution requires both an Agricultural Revolution and a commercial/capitalist revolution.

    A scenario where both of these take place makes industrialization more plausible.
     
  11. fasquardon Cosmonaut

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Permaculture, if applied to all farm land currently under the plough, would pull a few gigatonnes of CO2 out of the atmosphere. I hesitate to make any claims with solid numbers, since we're talking about a dynamic equilibrium in a very complex system indeed, but no matter how you cut it, we're talking a huge amount more biomass in the soil and a huge amount less carbon in the atmosphere. It's not just beneficial, it's the single biggest positive measure we could take (as opposed to negative measures where we stop doing something in the hopes to make things better). It takes a while for the soil ecology to go from "devastated" to "thriving and fertile" however, so all farmland switching at once isn't something I'd recommend and the time required means we'd need to take aggressive measures elsewhere to get a full solution.

    fasquardon
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019 at 5:39 PM
    Hassan-i-Sabbah likes this.
  12. Workable Goblin Chronicler of the Pony Wars

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Location:
    Canterlot
    The problem is that there’s a lot of gigatonnes of CO2 in the atmosphere already, so pulling “a few” out won’t actually do that much (especially if it’s not combined with emissions reductions, of course). Additionally, there are other techniques such as enhanced weathering, non-permaculture related afforestation, and biochar creation which offer similar potentials to remove some amount of CO2 from the atmosphere, with some seeming to be capable of removing a practically unlimited amount of CO2 with sufficient investment (specifically enhanced weathering and direct air capture and sequestration). Those seem more promising than widespread adoption of permaculture to me.

    As I said, though, I’m not an expert in this area.
     
    Hassan-i-Sabbah likes this.
  13. fasquardon Cosmonaut

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Back of the envelope calculations would suggest that we'd need to dig up more gigatonnes of coal/gas/oil to feed all the soil formation we're talking about.

    I am dubious of such calculations however, so until we've tried scaling up the techniques further, I will be conservative and say only "a few".

    fasquardon
     
    Hassan-i-Sabbah likes this.
  14. Hassan-i-Sabbah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2019
    @Workable Goblin @fasquardon

    I feel like we need actual studies on permaculture to get the exact numbers of it's impact. I'm not sure exactly why we can't do all of them at once.

    Of course it doesn't matter since humanity isn't coordinated enough to stop climate change anyways.