AHC: Alternate Magyar migrations

[Deleted member 114175]

Could the Magyars have migrated somewhere other than the Carpathian Basin/Pannonian Plain?

On one hand, the Carpathian Basin is the westernmost extension of the Eurasian steppe, which would imply that it was the most pragmatic place for the Magyars to settle.

On the other hand, there's plenty of flat land in Europe and the Huns got to northern Gaul, let alone the Magyars' own raids as far as Spain.

 

[Gloss]

I find interesting the idea they defeat the Bulgarians, could they replace them even?

They can't really settle in Germany, France, Italy or Iberia, it really wouldn't work I think. Even in Bulgaria or Romania their settlement would end up probably nto being as ethnically dominant as they were IOTL.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Are we only considering places where they'd be able to preserve their language and culture about as well as they did IOTL?

 

[Deleted member 114175]

I find interesting the idea they defeat the Bulgarians, could they replace them even?

They can't really settle in Germany, France, Italy or Iberia, it really wouldn't work I think. Even in Bulgaria or Romania their settlement would end up probably nto being as ethnically dominant as they were IOTL.

Magyar usurpation of the Bulgarian Empire is an interesting idea. It should be possible in principle given the Bulgars too originated from the Pontic steppe.

The northern part of Romania and Moldova is also an extension of the Eurasian steppe. Back in the Middle Ages, it is a precarious location next to the Byzantine Empire and we see the Byzantines overthrow the Pechenegs for the Cumans, terminating the Pecheneg ascendancy there.

Are we only considering places where they'd be able to preserve their language and culture about as well as they did IOTL?

If the Magyars can conquer the region and create a state/confederation there, then it counts, even if they assimilate later on.

Ideally, however, the region should be named after them either as Magyars or Hungarians.

 

[Qhapaq Inka]

Are you limiting the destinations to just Europe? If not, maybe they could pre-empt the Seljuks and conquer Anatolia.

 

[Monter]

Are you limiting the destinations to just Europe? If not, maybe they could pre-empt the Seljuks and conquer Anatolia.

From the Caucasus or the Balkans? In the former you can get them to Middle East too, Muslim Magyars!

 

[Qhapaq Inka]

From the Caucasus or the Balkans? In the former you can get them to Middle East too, Muslim Magyars!

I was thinking Caucasus. And an Islamic middle-eastern Magyar power would be rad

 

[cmakk1012]

From the Caucasus or the Balkans? In the former you can get them to Middle East too, Muslim Magyars!

An early PoD could set them against the Khazars, I guess, and since the Magyars might not make the (IMO strange) choice to convert to Judaism they’ll probably convert to Islam instead.

This sets up an earlier, stronger Muslim North Caucasus, which could have interesting butterflies—do the Rus convert as well, or do they convert to Orthodoxy still and then holy war against the Magyars?

 

[water123]

Maybe they get to Poland or Bohemia? Though a big part of the Magyar success otl is the fact that the pannonian basin was emptied by a bunch of really really big ears and the Avars were only kinda getting acquainted with the whole "settled agriculture" thing.

 

[Deleted member 114175]

Are you limiting the destinations to just Europe? If not, maybe they could pre-empt the Seljuks and conquer Anatolia.

The Magyars could conquer somewhere outside of Europe, but that seems substantially more difficult. The Caucasus Mountains are very tough to campaign over -- both the Mongols and Seljuks crossed through Persia and invaded the Caucasus from the south, rather than from the north.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

The Magyars could conquer somewhere outside of Europe, but that seems substantially more difficult. The Caucasus Mountains are very tough to campaign over -- both the Mongols and Seljuks crossed through Persia and invaded the Caucasus from the south, rather than from the north.

Presenting the coolest idea in this thread: they go through Persia and flank the Caucasus and then take Anatolia. But! They convert to Nestorianism.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

Presenting the coolest idea in this thread: they go through Persia and flank the Caucasus and then take Anatolia. But! They convert to Nestorianism.

Cool!
I can see Nestorianism - or other not Catholic-Orthodox brand of Christianity - being adopted as to keep them free, in religious terms, from Constantinople.
Although, unless they picked up Nestorianism on the steppe (in Persia?), post-conquest I'd imagine them going Georgian or Armenian. Would probably adopt Armenian language and culture - even if not necessarily identity - over time, though.
Still, some Nestorian missionary translating the Bible into 9th century Hungarian* and thus gifting the world with a Hungarian speaking Magyarorszag in Anatolia would be a hoot

* Why not? Wulfilas ...

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Cool!
I can see Nestorianism - or other not Catholic-Orthodox brand of Christianity - being adopted as to keep them free, in religious terms, from Constantinople.
Although, unless they picked up Nestorianism on the steppe (in Persia?), post-conquest I'd imagine them going Georgian or Armenian. Would probably adopt Armenian language and culture - even if not necessarily identity - over time, though.
Still, some Nestorian missionary translating the Bible into 9th century Hungarian* and thus gifting the world with a Hungarian speaking Magyarorszag in Anatolia would be a hoot

* Why not? Wulfilas ...

Nestorian Hunyadi defending Antioch from the Seljuks. Make it happen.

 

[alexmilman]

Could the Magyars have migrated somewhere other than the Carpathian Basin/Pannonian Plain?

On one hand, the Carpathian Basin is the westernmost extension of the Eurasian steppe, which would imply that it was the most pragmatic place for the Magyars to settle.

On the other hand, there's plenty of flat land in Europe and the Huns got to northern Gaul, let alone the Magyars' own raids as far as Spain.

The Huns RAIDED Gaul and many other places and so did the Magyars but there is a great difference between raiding an area and permanently settling in it. Neither the Magyars nor the Huns could settle outside the steppe belt without seriously changing their life style, economy and military system.

 

[cmakk1012]

Cool!
I can see Nestorianism - or other not Catholic-Orthodox brand of Christianity - being adopted as to keep them free, in religious terms, from Constantinople.
Although, unless they picked up Nestorianism on the steppe (in Persia?), post-conquest I'd imagine them going Georgian or Armenian. Would probably adopt Armenian language and culture - even if not necessarily identity - over time, though.
Still, some Nestorian missionary translating the Bible into 9th century Hungarian* and thus gifting the world with a Hungarian speaking Magyarorszag in Anatolia would be a hoot

* Why not? Wulfilas ...

Yeah, Miaphysite Caucasian Hungary is far more likely than Nestorian—Nestorianism is very appealing to alt-hist but it just wasn’t that prominent or prestigious.

I really, really like the idea of a Hungarian Armenia, actually—it’s one of the more plausible (lol) ways I’ve seen to buff medieval Armenia, especially if the Hungarians keep their horse culture. I also think that in the era of the Magyar migration they’d be more likely to assimilate to the Armenians than to the Georgians; the latter only rose in prestige after the Seljuks, right when Armenia was falling.

ITTL you’d see a powerful nomadic empire based in the Caucasus that could directly threaten Mesopotamia. Expect a major war between this empire and the Caliphate very quickly, and I’m not sure who would win.

 

[alexmilman]

Yeah, Miaphysite Caucasian Hungary is far more likely than Nestorian—Nestorianism is very appealing to alt-hist but it just wasn’t that prominent or prestigious.

I really, really like the idea of a Hungarian Armenia, actually—it’s one of the more plausible (lol) ways I’ve seen to buff medieval Armenia, especially if the Hungarians keep their horse culture.

How would they manage to preserve "horse culture" in the area void of the steppes?

I also think that in the era of the Magyar migration they’d be more likely to assimilate to the Armenians than to the Georgians; the latter only rose in prestige after the Seljuks, right when Armenia was falling.

How would they manage to assimilate with the Armenians?

ITTL you’d see a powerful nomadic empire based in the Caucasus that could directly threaten Mesopotamia. Expect a major war between this empire and the Caliphate very quickly, and I’m not sure who would win.

Nomadic empire hardly can be based in the Caucasus because mountains are not very good for breeding a lot of horses. It could be based on the area NORTH of the Caucasus (Kuban - Terek) which seemingly has enough of the good pastures but has little to do with Armenia or Georgia. However, there wss a tiny problem preventing them from settling anywhere in the region: at the approximate time of their migration (late IX century), area was dominated by the Khazars on the North and by the Abbasids on the South. In other words, they could run only to the West.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

The Magyar could continue their horse culture in Anatolia. They'd pick up their civilisation from Armenia as it was a lesser threat than the Byzantines.
Same/similar situation in north Syria-Mesopotamia. For some reason they get chummy with Armenians and not the vanquished Abbassids.

 

[cmakk1012]

How would they manage to preserve "horse culture" in the area void of the steppes?

Yeah, that’s the challenge, isn’t it? If they conquered Mesopotamia they’d have flat lands to work with but that would involve conquering the Abbasids near their height...

How would they manage to assimilate with the Armenians?

By conquering them and then blending into their culture? The early medieval period was an apogee of Armenian culture, especially on the religious side of things.

Nomadic empire hardly can be based in the Caucasus because mountains are not very good for breeding a lot of horses. It could be based on the area NORTH of the Caucasus (Kuban - Terek) which seemingly has enough of the good pastures but has little to do with Armenia or Georgia. However, there wss a tiny problem preventing them from settling anywhere in the region: at the approximate time of their migration (late IX century), area was dominated by the Khazars on the North and by the Abbasids on the South. In other words, they could run only to the West.

Well, the PoD suggested a conquest of the Khazars before they really got going. I agree that the nomadic stuff might have to be dropped. Instead maybe you just get a unified Armeno-Hungarian kingdom, which would do better against external threats than the Armenian polities IOTL just by virtue of being unified.

 

[GauchoBadger]

Yeah, that’s the challenge, isn’t it? If they conquered Mesopotamia they’d have flat lands to work with but that would involve conquering the Abbasids near their height...

The Abbasids of the late 9th century were going through a period of serious turmoil, which the Magyars could exploit through offering a protection treaty to the Caliph or forming a convenient alliance with the Qarmatians and Kharijites.

 

[Monter]

Yeah, that’s the challenge, isn’t it? If they conquered Mesopotamia they’d have flat lands to work with but that would involve conquering the Abbasids near their height...

Have them invade it during the mid 9th century when the Abbasids are entangled in the Anarchy at Samarra.