AHC: After 400 AD, a Roman Emperor holds at least 4 Magister Militum titles and 1 Praetorian Prefect

Deleted member 97083

With a POD in 400 AD or later, have a reigning Roman Emperor hold at least 4 magister militum positions, at least 1 praetorian prefecture, and as many other high-ranking Roman titles as possible.

How does this change the power of the emperor title and his relation with nobles, the military, and common subjects of the Roman Empire?
 
With a POD in 400 AD or later, have a reigning Roman Emperor hold at least 4 magister militum positions, at least 1 praetorian prefecture, and as many other high-ranking Roman titles as possible.

How does this change the power of the emperor title and his relation with nobles, the military, and common subjects of the Roman Empire?

Why would they do that? The title Imperator was far superior than any of those because their Imperium was given to them by the Emperor, and even if the Emperor had those titles they would still be forced to delegate power so that would just make them create more titles.
 

Deleted member 97083

Why would they do that? The title Imperator was far superior than any of those because their Imperium was given to them by the Emperor, and even if the Emperor had those titles they would still be forced to delegate power so that would just make them create more titles.
Imperator was nominally a superior title but that wasn't always the case in reality.

I was thinking that concentrating magister militum and praetorian prefecture titles into the titles of one emperor would increase that emperor's power, much like imperator superseded Consul and combined tribune, dictator, censor, princeps, dominus, and other titles.
 
Imperator was nominally a superior title but that wasn't always the case in reality.

I was thinking that concentrating magister militum and praetorian prefecture titles into the titles of one emperor would increase that emperor's power, much like imperator superseded Consul and combined tribune, dictator, censor, princeps, dominus, and other titles.

It wouldn't work because the Emperor couldn't be everywhere so he would be forced to delegate power to generals, so you would just be replacing those titles for others.
 
I mostly agree with Karolus Rex. It rather looks like to what I'd expect from a bad CK II mod, than reality.
If someone actually tried to pull that, it would have been seen at best at a major stroke of ego, but more realistically, it would have pissed Roman and Romanized Barbarian leaders that would have worked and tried to get the title thanks trough their military service. I'd give this emperor maybe, what, 2 weeks of survival?

More seriously, in the late IVth up to the VIth it became while not common, a regular occurence that the emperor would have recieved a title of magister militia at least once before his access to the imperial title.
Stilicho was magister militium for Thracias, Majorian used this title during a lot of its historiographical reign, Julius Nepos was MM for Illyricum, Justinian was MM before aceeding the throne, etc. It's just that by aceeding to the purple, emperors became de jure chiefs of the militia (which meant military AND administrative hierarchy).

So I could see some magisteri titles being akin to a consulate or co-imperiality, for what matter designating a second-in-command or an "heir appearant". I'm not that certain it could be institutionalized, tough, as MM was an expected honor for military leaders (Barbarians or Romans alike) : it simply had too much prestige or honor to be either collected like Pokemon, or to be that institutionalised outside its administrative/military use IMO.
 

Deleted member 97083

What was Comes et Magister Utriusque Militiae? What if the emperor maintained regional titles of magister militum and praetorian prefect, but obtained the imperial ones?
 
What was Comes et Magister Utriusque Militiae? What if the emperor maintained regional titles of magister militum and praetorian prefect, but obtained the imperial ones?
Comes and Magister Utriusque Militiae (Count and Master of both kinds of Militias) is less of an fixed institutional title (the "comes" part is often dropped), than more or less made-up term to describe the relatively new situation where the distinction between cavalry and infantery command became less and less relevant.
It's not a short for "second in command" or "de facto ruler of the empire". Peoples as Stilicho, Ricimer or Majorian went trough different titles for their posts.
 

Deleted member 97083

Comes and Magister Utriusque Militiae (Count and Master of both kinds of Militias) is less of an fixed institutional title (the "comes" part is often dropped), than more or less made-up term to describe the relatively new situation where the distinction between cavalry and infantery command became less and less relevant.
It's not a short for "second in command" or "de facto ruler of the empire". Peoples as Stilicho, Ricimer or Majorian went trough different titles for their posts.
Would you say this diagram is an accurate representation of the typical state of the Roman army?

1532px-West_Roman_army_command_structure.svg.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As said above, I'm skeptical about making the Master of Both Militias a supreme commander above the whole of military militia. It's a relatively exceptional title, that merged MM peditum and MM equitum. I'm also surprised by the lack of mention of MM praesentales (but it might be because it doesn't appears in the ND)

That said, it's from the Notitia Digntatum, so a certain given of de facto sitution is to be expected. But it's less because Stilicho was MM Utriusque Militiae that he was commander-in-chief than the reverse eventually. I'd even tend to think that his title of MM praesentales (chief of the troops close to the emperor) gave him as much leverage, or rather, the capacity of Stilicho to add-up titles and charges (which is one of the reasons of his downfall, actually).

So, I'd say it's less of a representation of the typical state of the Late Roman army, than a fairly acceptable description of the situation of the Late Roman army in the west in the early Vth (pretty much like this theoritical order map) but it shouldn't be taken at face value given some issues (acknowledged missing parts, probably a compilation of two distinct, chonologically, situations, etc.)

This diagram is much more abstract (given its generalizing part), but should be used IMO coplementarily.

EVentually, neither of these diagrams should be taken as absolute sources but representation of sources, which ask for a deeper research.
 

Deleted member 97083

As said above, I'm skeptical about making the Master of Both Militias a supreme commander above the whole of military militia. It's a relatively exceptional title, that merged MM peditum and MM equitum. I'm also surprised by the lack of mention of MM praesentales (but it might be because it doesn't appears in the ND)

That said, it's from the Notitia Digntatum, so a certain given of de facto sitution is to be expected. But it's less because Stilicho was MM Utriusque Militiae that he was commander-in-chief than the reverse eventually. I'd even tend to think that his title of MM praesentales (chief of the troops close to the emperor) gave him as much leverage, or rather, the capacity of Stilicho to add-up titles and charges (which is one of the reasons of his downfall, actually).

So, I'd say it's less of a representation of the typical state of the Late Roman army, than a fairly acceptable description of the situation of the Late Roman army in the west in the early Vth (pretty much like this theoritical order map) but it shouldn't be taken at face value given some issues (acknowledged missing parts, probably a compilation of two distinct, chonologically, situations, etc.)

This diagram is much more abstract (given its generalizing part), but should be used IMO coplementarily.

EVentually, neither of these diagrams should be taken as absolute sources but representation of sources, which ask for a deeper research.
In the map I linked, when it says "about 20 units are duplicated", which are most likely to be duplicated?

In Contamine's map which you linked, does "Magister Militum Praesentalis" connote the highest magister militum?

Also, is the yellow line on Contamine's map the division between western and eastern militaries? I notice that it's different from the border between the western empire and eastern empire. (I know they weren't separate states, just co-regents with separate administrations, though I would think the military border matches the border between emperors' jurisdictions).
 
In the map I linked, when it says "about 20 units are duplicated", which are most likely to be duplicated
I suspect that it means same unit were mentioned more than once in the overall distribution. (Which could be attrituted either to clerical error, either to the patch-work of various described eras).

In Contamine's map which you linked, does "Magister Militum Praesentalis" connote the highest magister militum?
No, as said, titles had fluctuating meaning when it comes to hierarchical meaning so high in the organisation.
In the map, MM Praesentalis mostly indicate field armies command in southern part of the diocese of Illyricum, but I think that's more part of the ERE hierarchy there, rather than WRE, giving that Stilicho had the title there, and that this region was under ERE's mandate.

Also, is the yellow line on Contamine's map the division between western and eastern militaries?
No, that's just an indication whoever scanned this should invest in new material, if they didn't already. It's absent from the original source.
 
I suspect that it means same unit were mentioned more than once in the overall distribution. (Which could be attrituted either to clerical error, either to the patch-work of various described eras).

Given that rather confusing divisions of the legions during that time don't you think it could refer to several detachments of the same unit?
 
Neither do I but I remember reading several authors saying that the detachments could be a reason for having so many units with the same numbers.
Then it must be detachement duplication for most case (altough I thought that unit themselves could be misappropriated, heh, I'll check later)
 
Then it must be detachement duplication for most case (altough I thought that unit themselves could be misappropriated, heh, I'll check later)

The greatest problem is that I only have a possible number for the number of men in each unit. Say 1000 men per unit, dividing them in 5 detachments of 200 or 10 of 100 but then those detachments could be divided...this is a confusion and I have no book to confirm those stuff right now.
 
The greatest problem is that I only have a possible number for the number of men in each unit. Say 1000 men per unit, dividing them in 5 detachments of 200 or 10 of 100 but then those detachments could be divided...this is a confusion and I have no book to confirm those stuff right now.
It's furthermore usual for troops issued from a same foedi to be dispatched in different formations, depending of the situation until the early Vth. It doesn't help.
 
Top