Bonny Prince Charlie nearly reached London, but was forced to retreat by his generals. What if he had stayed?
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AH: WI the Jacobites succeeded. (WIP)
- Thread starter Strathmore_and_Kinghorne
- Start date
Whoa, hold on. How does Charles take London?
I'm not saying this can't be done, but can't we at least have some acknowledgment of the how?
More serious problems.
England is helping Spain in South America? What?
Why would he nominate his six year old son as "prince regent"? And why would Edward need to be 20 before he's crowned?
The new...what?
Why is Wales rebelling?
Why is the American Revolution happening in this timeline? And its across rather more than the Channel...
Battle of the what now?
Okay, now I really think this is really an EU2 AAR.
A far superior Danish fleet?
So...what about the Holy Roman Empire? The empire that the states of the so-called Mitterreich Empire are part of?
And...why are the Ottomans sending a fleet to attack Italy?
This started off interesting and ended as inexplicable and confusing.
I'm not saying this can't be done, but can't we at least have some acknowledgment of the how?
More serious problems.
England is helping Spain in South America? What?
Why would he nominate his six year old son as "prince regent"? And why would Edward need to be 20 before he's crowned?
The new...what?
Why is Wales rebelling?
Why is the American Revolution happening in this timeline? And its across rather more than the Channel...
Battle of the what now?
Okay, now I really think this is really an EU2 AAR.
A far superior Danish fleet?
So...what about the Holy Roman Empire? The empire that the states of the so-called Mitterreich Empire are part of?
And...why are the Ottomans sending a fleet to attack Italy?
This started off interesting and ended as inexplicable and confusing.
It was only an idea i had yesterday, so its effectively a plan... sort of
The prince regent was an accident. i had originally had his son aged 16.
The boy needs to be 20 because thats what Charles (James) said whilst he was dying.
Catholic Scotland is in control in Britain, so they have an alliance with Catholic Spain, and the Channel was a slip.
this is my first, so i need a lot of help.
My friend saidd i should use Wellesley, because hes Irish, and Wellesley may not have been affected.
I was running out of ideas, and it jus got absurd, though it seemed to start sort of well...ish
The prince regent was an accident. i had originally had his son aged 16.
The boy needs to be 20 because thats what Charles (James) said whilst he was dying.
Catholic Scotland is in control in Britain, so they have an alliance with Catholic Spain, and the Channel was a slip.
this is my first, so i need a lot of help.
My friend saidd i should use Wellesley, because hes Irish, and Wellesley may not have been affected.
I was running out of ideas, and it jus got absurd, though it seemed to start sort of well...ish
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Can you give me some ideas, i mean, i originally had Bonoparte killed in the French reevolution as a young officer, but i scrapped that.
Charlie got to Derby, but a double agent made him turn back.
the king of England waas already packing his bags
the king of England waas already packing his bags
Start with the basics and build up from there.
How does Charles take London? This is at least in part a request for elaboration. Is it really that undefended? Will he be able to hold it? How does he manage to secure his position? The Jacobites aren't overwhelmingly popular in Britain. That doesn't mean he can't succeed, just that this will take some time and energy and good judgment.
After that, and dealing with any remaining Hanoverite efforts, he can start thinking about foreign wars.
Study what wars are going on at the time. How would a Jacobite UK differ from the one OTL? How have things been wrapped up in regards to Hanover? What about any alliances dropped (or formed) that didn't exist OTL?
From there, you can get an idea of what kind of things you need to take into consideration for events in the Seven Years War* (marked with a * because it probably won't be like OTL, so it may not even be known by the same name as OTL) and later.
From the Seven Years War, you can explore how the discontent in the American colonies works out. Maybe there is no American Revolution. Maybe George (Washington) is the one who dies instead of his older brother, Lawrence.
This is getting into butterflies, which are another issue - worry about the foundation first (taking London and securing the position of the Stuarts), and we can get to them later. Until that's squared away, nothing else in this timeline should be addressed.
This is where you need to find out how strong the garrison was, how strong Charles's army is - that sort of stuff.
I wish I could think of something to recommend for reading, but the most I can do at this point is offer advice on good timeline writing.
There are quite a few unexplained things in your scenario. Foe one, Kid Shortbried could not become James IX. His father didn't snuff it until 1766. More importantly, you said:
Scotland hadn't been Catholic since the time of John Knox and the Highland clans were mostly Episcopalian. Any alliances with Europe would more likely have been with France (La Vielle Alliance anyone?), but Spain was also involved in the '19. (A Jacobite rising which nobody is supposed to know about).
Scotland hadn't been Catholic since the time of John Knox and the Highland clans were mostly Episcopalian. Any alliances with Europe would more likely have been with France (La Vielle Alliance anyone?), but Spain was also involved in the '19. (A Jacobite rising which nobody is supposed to know about).
Cumberland had most of his army in the north, the King had fled with his body guard, and lots of Scotsmen are very scary
As to how he consolidated his position, i think he would hunt down Cumberland, and bring in heavy law enforcement for a while, though that might trigger a pro Hanoverian uprising.
As to how he consolidated his position, i think he would hunt down Cumberland, and bring in heavy law enforcement for a while, though that might trigger a pro Hanoverian uprising.
I forgot to sort out Charlies dad!
Charlie, however was a Catholic, and that may cause a pro hanoverian uprising... Like the last post
Charlie, however was a Catholic, and that may cause a pro hanoverian uprising... Like the last post
"I have concluded that the Jacobite Regime should collapse quickly" my Housemaster
Nope. The chiefs, many of whom actually had military experience made him turn back.
That's true.
He can't take London, it's not at all undefended, but the militia is a joke. Nor can he hold it or secure his position.
London isn't really garrisoned as it too damn big. As for how large the idiots army is, I provide this comment from Lord George Murray:-Elfwine;4359776Th said:
“Suppose even the Army march'd on and beat the Duke of Cumberland yett in the Battle they must Lose some men, and they had after that the King's own army consisting of near 7,000 men near London to deal with..........that certainly 4,500 Scots had never thought of putting a King upon the English Throne by themselves....”
They had support from french soldiers though.
Ive always thought it was someone giving flase info... thats what i was taught!
Ive always thought it was someone giving flase info... thats what i was taught!
Why not? (on the hold & secure part)
Asking, not arguing.
How big is it (London)? "Too damn big" is mighty vague.
And <4,500 vs. 7,000 is not necessarily overwhelming.
Not that I'm saying Murray was wrong, but "improbable" does not mean "flat out impossible" in war.
Idea: with support from french soldiers (Fact) Charlie manages to take the Capital. Cumberland commits suicide. However, the Hanoverians rise up within the year and crackk down even harder than normal (Result: more resentment, rebellion, break down of society etc.)
Most people reading the thread will be familiar with If: A Jacobite Fantasy by Charles Petrie, but those who don't know it might find it interesting and relevant.
Basically due to numbers. The Jacobites couldn't replace losses
The population of London at the time was around 800,000 to 900,000.
It is when you add in all the other "armies" which were floating about England. Cumberland had something in the region of 13,000, "his majesty's army" was about 7,000. then there were the others, Ligonier (16,000), Wade (10,000), Hawley (about the same).
It does when you don't have the ability replace your losses (just ask the Germans in Stalingrad).
The '45 was doomed from the start as the idiot-in-chief didn't bring with him the promised French aid. Mind you, that's principally because the bastard didn't tell them he was going.......
Oh Yeah, S&K, the famous support from French soldiers - there were eventually something like 500 from the Irish Brigade and the Royale Eccosaise. Marvellous support. Also why would Cumberland commit suicide?