AH Challenge: Negroid state to Europe
- Thread starter Guy2
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Spengler
Banned
rather difficult being that most black Africans come from sub Saharan Africa and would have to cross the Sahara in doing it. BTW negroid is really pushing it.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Negroid sounds err...yeah. It's not likely given you need them to cross the Sahara. Maybe have the Nubians consolidate their hold over Egypt?
Lusitania
Donor
Have several "Black African" tribes from west Africa being pushed north into Marroco by climate other tribes in the time Rome collapses. They in turn push the Berbers to Algeria and Tunisia. Them when Muslims arrive and convert them a majority black Marrocan nation invades Iberian Peninsula. For hundreds of years many of the small Iberian states have a substantial black population. You might end up with "Black Granada" from there well we would ahve to see.
But if the number of blacks is substatntial enough in the Peninsula we could end up with a completely different mixture of people "body type, hair, facial features" in both Spain and Portugal.
How would that play in future, would they still be as accepted, or would they be viewed differently by rest of Europe (caucasian).
But if the number of blacks is substatntial enough in the Peninsula we could end up with a completely different mixture of people "body type, hair, facial features" in both Spain and Portugal.
How would that play in future, would they still be as accepted, or would they be viewed differently by rest of Europe (caucasian).
It is said, but not clear on the accuracy, that some parts of the deepest parts of the Black Forest region in south western Germany had peoples of swarthy complexion, said to come from refugees during the fall of the Roman Empire. (Black Dutch was a often heard term to cover up Indian ancestory in the US, and many sources cite this origination.) More accurately, Koln (Cologne) was and still is the same. Joseph Goebbels, for example, was from there and fairly swarthy. The story is, that in Cologne Nubian Kush division was the main troops used in Roman times for over a hundred years, although other troops would have contributed. I forget how long it was.
That might be able to help your TL, if research accuracy holds. The Legions pulled out of the city about 457 AD, replaced by the Franks. Hard to see where there would be any power vacuums, but troop mutinies and takeovers were hardly unknown in the latter Imperial times and sometimes not by the top individuals.
A stretch, but worth consideration. Often such labels were used as disparagement, and real evidence is hard to come by for obvious reasons of time/isolation/etc.
That might be able to help your TL, if research accuracy holds. The Legions pulled out of the city about 457 AD, replaced by the Franks. Hard to see where there would be any power vacuums, but troop mutinies and takeovers were hardly unknown in the latter Imperial times and sometimes not by the top individuals.
A stretch, but worth consideration. Often such labels were used as disparagement, and real evidence is hard to come by for obvious reasons of time/isolation/etc.
I haven't heard the term "Negroid" in years. I remember reading a 1970s-era World Book encyclopedia saying the three main racial groups were "Caucasoid," "Mongoloid," and "Negroid" and later being told that "Mongoloid" had become associated with Down Syndrome.
About the OP, unless the black group that entered Europe was large enough, wouldn't they end up assimilating?
About the OP, unless the black group that entered Europe was large enough, wouldn't they end up assimilating?
Max Sinister
Banned
Oh please, swarthy (strange word BTW) isn't black.
And those darker people in Germany will have Romans as ancestors (or maybe Roman slaves, and those could have been from all over the empire, incl. North Africa and the Middle East). Don't forget that the Black Forest area was part of the Roman empire for ~200 years.
And those darker people in Germany will have Romans as ancestors (or maybe Roman slaves, and those could have been from all over the empire, incl. North Africa and the Middle East). Don't forget that the Black Forest area was part of the Roman empire for ~200 years.
Not so strange. Swarthy is cognate to German 'schwartz', meaning black. Black, however, is the real strange one, descending from the same Proto-Indo-European root as bleach and blank.
Hmmmm....are we talking Europe being substantially all 'dark-skinned' like sub-saharan peoples in Europe or the establishment of a state in Europe which is primarily of that racial makeup through colonization?
If the former, Neanderthals are substantially more aggressive towards Cro-Magnon man such that populations of Cro-Magnons are decimated migrating into Europe. Cro-Magnon populations from elsewhere cease their migrations Eastward (i.e. 'Here be dragons!') and Neanderthal man survives a bit longer in Europe than it would have otherwise, but fails to adapt to the climate change, post Ice-Age, and eventually die off. This makes Europe essentially virgin territory for migration at a much later date when civilization of the sub-saharans have time to develop to the point where climate will not affect the phenotype of the homo-sapiens who eventually move in to this virgin territory.
If the latter, the POD would be basically, where civilization never moves past a neolithic level of existence for the most part within Europe proper nor are populations significant enough for the establishment of any great cities or at least none at the time of eventual colonization similar to how North America was colonized. Have the Nubians in the area of the Sudan develop more extensively without the impediment of the Greeks, Egyptian or Roman Empires in the way to the north and eventually they come to colonize Europe much like North America was colonized.
If the former, Neanderthals are substantially more aggressive towards Cro-Magnon man such that populations of Cro-Magnons are decimated migrating into Europe. Cro-Magnon populations from elsewhere cease their migrations Eastward (i.e. 'Here be dragons!') and Neanderthal man survives a bit longer in Europe than it would have otherwise, but fails to adapt to the climate change, post Ice-Age, and eventually die off. This makes Europe essentially virgin territory for migration at a much later date when civilization of the sub-saharans have time to develop to the point where climate will not affect the phenotype of the homo-sapiens who eventually move in to this virgin territory.
If the latter, the POD would be basically, where civilization never moves past a neolithic level of existence for the most part within Europe proper nor are populations significant enough for the establishment of any great cities or at least none at the time of eventual colonization similar to how North America was colonized. Have the Nubians in the area of the Sudan develop more extensively without the impediment of the Greeks, Egyptian or Roman Empires in the way to the north and eventually they come to colonize Europe much like North America was colonized.
Interestingly, I was thinking about an essentially identical challenge the other day. Although my goal was more "make European blacks more like OTL's American blacks".
Not a big deal to me, but the way I read it is that the Black Forest
people were, as late as the middle ages, distinctly dark. Yes, if any of this is
correct, certainly Roman in part. But that is not the issue, genetic
evidence by superficial methods is.
For example, blonde hair in Ireland. As heard, it is still used by the
local Irish population in the rather negative slurring blondes, the form
of persons having "slow ancestors" meaning they did not run away
from the Vikings fast enough. (Red hair is a Celtic/British Isle strong
point, though, the highest ratio in the world is with some western isles
of Scotland, about 14 -16 % I recall.)
Having distinctly swarthy color is harder to ignore, usually harder to
breed out, and a quick death sentence at many hard times where any
negative identifying issues are dangerous. So head for the hills where
few people venture. The Black Forest is very lush, even in today's
acid rain supports easy to hid, easy to grow things (comparable to the
alps, which was the bastion of another group running away from the
Germans, the Celtic Helvitia (sp).
And the Black Forest was known for storytelling and deep German
customs. When people are against you, your own culture, and ones
you must at least occasionally trade/interact with, adopt super
culture and people will accept you more, tell you if anyone is looking
for you, etc. Easy to lay an ambush in the Pacific NorthWest, as those
forests are incredibly tough to make good time or see a few feet infront
of you. Both the Black Forest and the Pacific North West get lots of rain,
thick undergrowth.
Finally, on the subject of racial mixing, it does happen that one parent
dominates a great deal, capable of passing for that parent's race. But
future children could activate that gene, especially when two offspring
themselves have children. And one child deep in the woods can be
hidden, not so in the lowlands. We see the same thing in the
Western Carribean, even though their lives were not in danger in living memory,
with the mostly white Creoles. It was a time life type book which mentioned that
very same issue (one sentence plus picture, of a twenty volume series I have seen many
times in libraries all over the US/the Globe since coming out circa 1977.)
As far as I'm aware, the Portuguese imported tens of thousands of slaves into Lisbon over the course of modern slave trade. Let them lose Brazil at an earlier stage, and there's a chance that more of many more of those Africans might be destined for work on the Portuguese mainland.
I have a good friend who is Portuguese, who considers herself 'white', but to my mind she must have the equivilent of about an eighth African blood.
Beyond that, the only way I think it could be done is if a Roman legion/Ottoman mercenary force settles somewhere. Probably your best bet would be nearer to the Levant.
I have a good friend who is Portuguese, who considers herself 'white', but to my mind she must have the equivilent of about an eighth African blood.
Beyond that, the only way I think it could be done is if a Roman legion/Ottoman mercenary force settles somewhere. Probably your best bet would be nearer to the Levant.
Well technically Hungarians in the 11-14 centuries were pretty dark skinned. Right I mean look at Geza for excample. However if you mean an actual Negroid state then have the moorish taifas take control of Spain completly. After all were not most moors african? Thus with the reconquista a failure you have an African-Islamic Spain, Spain is part of Europe.
Anywya do I get a cookie
Anywya do I get a cookie
The Moors of Iberia were Arab/Berber.
I wasn't able to find any references to Geza being dark skinned.
Was he just called dark instead of dark skinned? Because in Europe that meant black haired, which doesn't seem like it'd be strange for Hungarians.
Valdemar II
Banned
Well technically Hungarians in the 11-14 centuries were pretty dark skinned. Right I mean look at Geza for excample. However if you mean an actual Negroid state then have the moorish taifas take control of Spain completly. After all were not most moors african? Thus with the reconquista a failure you have an African-Islamic Spain, Spain is part of Europe.
Anywya do I get a cookie
Look at the incredible "Negroid" Moors