I think support from within is the only way. No one has ever seen the United States fully mobilized against an agressive invader. Even if Brittian, France, and Germany suprised attack I don't see how they could support there army/hold ground after they advance withouth some support of the local population. The amount of guns owned by civilians coupled with the size and defensive geographic nature of America is too much to overcome in my opinion without splintering off a good portion of the population to support you. Even if they did manage to conquer all of the USA could you image the partisan activitey? I am not sure if all of Western Europe united could they keep the US pacified withouth resorting to some very ugly pacification.
AH Challenge: A German invasion of the United States
- Thread starter bard32
- Start date
MrP
Banned
Two ships in WWII don't really compare to an entire navy pre-WWI through the busiest shipping lane in the world, do they?
I fear you're letting your exuberance for a cool scenario get the better of you, old man. The German fleet is unquestionably more powerful than the USN in WWI, but the idea that it's easy to load an army, move it through the Channel and across the Atlantic, and invade the USA completely in secret is, ah, implausible.
It says something against plausibility/likelihood that my initial thought for achieving the scenario was a Tunguska-style strike on a few RN bases followed by the Kaiser going totally doolally.
MrP
Banned
You mean on Portsmouth, Plymouth and Chatham I assume?
Neah, I was thinking more the other ones scattered around the globe.
To sum everything up. The possibility of a successful U.S. invasion by Germany is almost impossible. What many people don't realise is the fact that logistics is a key role in everything. If you have a army of 100,000 to attack an army of 10,000 a thousand miles away with no feasible logistics the larger army would be forced to surrender from starvation or lack of reinforcements and supplies while the smaller army have homefield advantage. The size of the German navy is large nevertheless, but still is not as powerful as the RN. Even if the Germans landed by suprise and went by undetected, having several thousand troops in the American East Coast easily alerts the British that the Germans were up to no good. After that the supply lines and navy of the Germans are severely decimated by the strength of the Royal Navy. With no supplies coming in the German invading forces are pretty much shot up with no real hope of victory with resistance movements and the unavoidable massive military buildup to free the U.S.
bard32
Banned
Ever hear of the Zimmermann Telegram? It was a telegram sent to the Mexican government by the German foreign minister, Zimmermann, in 1917.
It offered Mexico the entire southwestern United States if Mexico entered the
war on the side of the Central Powers. This was the causis belli for Woodrow Wilson to declare war on Germany.
Yes, it was one of the stupidest instances of statecraft which basically offered Mexico the chance to commit suicide for Germany. It was doomed from the start.
The WW1 plans for German Invasion into US are new to me
The WW2 plans are part of bigger plan.
bevor world war 2 high rang Nazi and Military plot a General warplan.
this plan was blessed by Hitler
Phase one
conquest of Europe and USSR to Ural (WW2 1939-1945)
destroy the Enermy of Thrid Reich and secure Resources and living space
Phase two
conquest of Africa and near east and India to Japanies Empire border
Phase three
Conquest of rest of world
to realistic point of view.
imagine D-Day with a transport distant of 6600 km.
defacto is D-Day a US Join-ventur Invasion of Germany !
only they had England as allies and storage place and Start point for Invasion.
has US coast a simlear Start point ?
Newfoundland or Nova Scotia in Canada
i know this is a invasion of US, let asume England in occupied by the German.
and US secret servis thinks (wrong) the Germans only want to occupied canada.
from Nova Scotia they can made D-day like invasion on US state Maine
move with Blitzkrieg to Boston, New York, Philadelphia to Washington D.C.
the german invasion force will be focus on east coast
with The Appalachian Mountains as natural barrier.
because they have to control the area, secure supply by US Factory
get every drop of fuel for there warmaschine. ( and Ammo )
and US Goverment and Military ?
after Shock of Invasion and Panik, the Goverment gona be evacuated to St. Louis.
in Washington D.C. every Goverment build burns, only to left burn earth for Germans troops.
but major problems for Germans in US
the US warmaschine supply by Detroit, Denver, California
and George S. Patton ( captain in WW1, 4 star genernal in WW2)
he will lead the conterattac on German Forces from South Carolina
and hell he gona be piss off on them.
also the Resistance by National Rifle Association
so in the end, the Invasion (in WW1 or WW2) gona end in Fiasco for Germany
The WW2 plans are part of bigger plan.
bevor world war 2 high rang Nazi and Military plot a General warplan.
this plan was blessed by Hitler
Phase one
conquest of Europe and USSR to Ural (WW2 1939-1945)
destroy the Enermy of Thrid Reich and secure Resources and living space
Phase two
conquest of Africa and near east and India to Japanies Empire border
Phase three
Conquest of rest of world
to realistic point of view.
imagine D-Day with a transport distant of 6600 km.
defacto is D-Day a US Join-ventur Invasion of Germany !
only they had England as allies and storage place and Start point for Invasion.
has US coast a simlear Start point ?
Newfoundland or Nova Scotia in Canada
i know this is a invasion of US, let asume England in occupied by the German.
and US secret servis thinks (wrong) the Germans only want to occupied canada.
from Nova Scotia they can made D-day like invasion on US state Maine
move with Blitzkrieg to Boston, New York, Philadelphia to Washington D.C.
the german invasion force will be focus on east coast
with The Appalachian Mountains as natural barrier.
because they have to control the area, secure supply by US Factory
get every drop of fuel for there warmaschine. ( and Ammo )
and US Goverment and Military ?
after Shock of Invasion and Panik, the Goverment gona be evacuated to St. Louis.
in Washington D.C. every Goverment build burns, only to left burn earth for Germans troops.
but major problems for Germans in US
the US warmaschine supply by Detroit, Denver, California
and George S. Patton ( captain in WW1, 4 star genernal in WW2)
he will lead the conterattac on German Forces from South Carolina
and hell he gona be piss off on them.
also the Resistance by National Rifle Association
so in the end, the Invasion (in WW1 or WW2) gona end in Fiasco for Germany
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Grey Wolf
Donor
I'm not sure about this 'armed citizenry' thing when faced with the regular German army. As for civilians behind the German lines, the first thing the Germans will do is institute martial law and demand all weapons are handed in - fine, people WON'T but it will now be a capital violation to be caught with one. Any civilian seen walking or skulking around with one can be shot.
Now, IMHO this doesn't rule out partisans but these tend to operate best in open country where the control of the occupation authorities is lightest. They certainly mitigate against holding down a huge swathe of territory, but not the initial areas
You would get a more WW2 French Resistance style response, sabotage, blowing up of a few things, execution of individuals etc
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Now, IMHO this doesn't rule out partisans but these tend to operate best in open country where the control of the occupation authorities is lightest. They certainly mitigate against holding down a huge swathe of territory, but not the initial areas
You would get a more WW2 French Resistance style response, sabotage, blowing up of a few things, execution of individuals etc
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
True but the central powers were already fighting france and Britian and what was left of the Russians at this time, not to mention the Italians. I'm suggesting that the scenario would have gone more the Germans way if they had British support, no French or Russians to deal with and so could actually stand a chance of building up forces on the border of the US.
The conquest of the US would take time. Time which is going to be used by the country to make more guns and ammo while training a larger army. Now virtually everyone has guns and if you think that the Germans would have an easy time getting past the various mountain ranges you're wrong.
Grey Wolf
Donor
I don't really see how that addresses my point in any way ?
As for your scenario, no German plan for invading the USA called for conquering it. The idea was to bring about its political capitulation so that Germany could then dictate their terms, which in the 1900-1920 era would be with regard to colonial concessions, abandonment of the Monroe Doctrine etc
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
I'm sorry, but this is almost as nigh impossible as the thread discussion as a whole.
If the Germans reach a point where their biggest problem is getting over the Appalachians, then something has gone so wrong with the Americans that it won't be a problem.
The fact is that there will be sooner or later and more likely sooner then later regular forces along side partisan ones. There is no way in hell for the Germans to find every hidden gun in the US. Even capital punishment for having them won't work as they will likely be hidden somewhere that is extremely hard to find for anyone except the person in question. Americans were willing to fight and die in OTL in Germany, why would they be unwilling to do so at home? The problem for the Germans is that they will be at the end of a very long supply line, will have to use a lot of troops to occupy the country while fending off large and growing armies. It is not really doable. If there aim is simply to get the US to capitulate it still is going to not work. It is very hard to see why an American government will do so when its enemy is in a near hopeless logistical situation.
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True enough, I was trying to point out how hard it would be to conquer the US.
Valamyr
Banned
It depends what the goals of the invasion are. Occupying the continent is impossible for Germany IMO; but the war plans from pre-WW1 that I've read about, IIRC, were about forcing the US to back down on the Monroe Doctrine to establish protectorates in South America and capture Havana.
The plan was a surprise attack against an unmobilized US, the only scenario likely to succeed imo, and called for nothing less than amphibious landings in Long Island and Manhattan. All operations would happen only in New-England, and the the idea was that losing it's industrial base would make the US accept terms that did not affect it's own territory.
Still a longshot, but a German division in Manhattan circa 1900 could have a very different psychological impact than it would have 50 years later. The US doesn't see itself as a first amongst Great powers yet, and the Monroe Doctrine could easily seem like a dangerous overstretch and a bad idea after a single defeat.
The plan was a surprise attack against an unmobilized US, the only scenario likely to succeed imo, and called for nothing less than amphibious landings in Long Island and Manhattan. All operations would happen only in New-England, and the the idea was that losing it's industrial base would make the US accept terms that did not affect it's own territory.
Still a longshot, but a German division in Manhattan circa 1900 could have a very different psychological impact than it would have 50 years later. The US doesn't see itself as a first amongst Great powers yet, and the Monroe Doctrine could easily seem like a dangerous overstretch and a bad idea after a single defeat.
Markus
Banned
1. I rote about this so-called plan in a major German newspaper in the early 90´s. Old news, literally.
2. The plan was not so much a plan to invade the USA, but rather an explanation why Germany could not invade the USA given the actual and possible circumstances.
Or in other words: They said, "That´s ASB!" to His Majesty.
edit:
Guys, come on! Did you forget the so-called high Seas Fleet was a)in it´s infancy around 1900 and b)designed for operations in the central and southern North Sea? And about France? They wanted a re-match for 1870 for a long time. And last but not least this piece of crap called the book 1901! Christ, what a junk. The author does not get even the most basic fact about the german system of government right. Any high school student with acess to wikipedia could have made far less mistakes.
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