A series of assumptions: a Britwank on a budget?

[Riain]

They were lucky the Argentine submariners were NTG and using German gear in one instance and misused their GUPPY boat in the other circumstance. I mean REALLY lucky

Well yes and no.

Britain knew what it took to make great submariners, they had been producing them for almost a century through the 'Perisher' course. Other countries knew this too, not just ex RN partners like Australia and Canada but NATO countries like Norway sent their prospective submarine captains to Perisher to be great. Britain knew who the top tier submarine operating countries were and would be aware that Argentina was not among them. IIRC West Germany withdrew its technicians from Argentina at some point, and this info would have been shared with Britain in the same way the the French withdrew support for Exocet and told Britain.

In these circumstances it's hardly surprising that the Argentine submarine arm couldn't do what Wreford-Brown did, they were unable to manufacture their own luck.

 

[Riain]

Makes sense. Great Britain economic hardships won't change compared to OTL - the difference is, the British military is in far better position to tell the bean counters
"Fuck you very much, we are strong and safe, go cut something else..." (it also applies to NASA versus Mondale - Proxmire - Karth in any non-shuttle TL...)

Britain is put in a position where cuts aren't crippling, for example in OTL 1975 Britain pretty much pulled out of the Med making the Belfast redundant and the aircraft disposed of which lost Britain the strategic airlift capability. ITTL they could cut 10 or even 15 Belfasts and still retain a strategic airlift capability. In any case with the TSR2 in service there will be no Tornado programme to soak up money on top of OTL Jaguar programme while running very expensive Vulcans in the theatre strike role. Putting things to bed successfully reduces pressure later.

 

[McPherson]

Well yes and no.

Britain knew what it took to make great submariners, they had been producing them for almost a century through the 'Perisher' course. Other countries knew this too, not just ex RN partners like Australia and Canada but NATO countries like Norway sent their prospective submarine captains to Perisher to be great. Britain knew who the top tier submarine operating countries were and would be aware that Argentina was not among them. IIRC West Germany withdrew its technicians from Argentina at some point, and this info would have been shared with Britain in the same way the the French withdrew support for Exocet and told Britain.

In these circumstances it's hardly surprising that the Argentine submarine arm couldn't do what Wreford-Brown did, they were unable to manufacture their own luck.

1. Holland class; produced by a man who worked for Irish terrorists and the USN.
2. Perisher was about 1916 or thereabouts. As I understand it, the DUTCH, because of their phenomenal success in the Pacific War, were British invited in as full fledged partners in rehabbing the course in light of general WWII Lessons Learned.
3. I regard the US withdrawal of technical support to the ARA in response to the Galtieri regime outrages as somewhat more significant than the Germans leaving. I frankly see no reason to have expected the ARA San Luis (S-32) was understood or even would be very effective in Argentine service, because the Germans in their Type 209s made things "German" and of course, in the pressures of battle, the fire control systems failed the Argentine crew, whether because of training lapses or German ergo complexification. I tend to think the Germans have never learned KISS. The ARA Santa Fe (S-21) (ex USS Catfish (SS-339) ) was misused. See 6.
4. May I point out that Wreford Brown's key accomplishment was stealing sonar equipment off a Soviet frigate in the Barents Sea in 1982? Quite an achievement.
5. Shooting the Belgano was fish in a barrel for him. The only thing about it, besides the fact it was a sanctioned shoot, was that the British torpedo used was the Mark Eight of WWII vintage, as the Tigerfish did not work at all. So, yes, the British RN made its own luck.

Lesson Learned? Check your fish before you send the fleet into war or you could be stuck with a Tigerfish or a SEAL that does not work at all.

See 6.

6. The NT37s...worked.

 

[Riain]

I thought I'd seen a photo of RN Perisher students with the crushed heads of their practice torpedoes in 1906, but never mind 66 years is plenty long enough to know what it takes to make submariners.

German complexity isn't a problem for first tier navies, running submarines (or any piece of complex military equipment) demands skills, training and money. Countries that half-arse this get half-arse results.

 

[McPherson]

German complexity isn't a problem for first tier navies, running submarines (or any piece of complex military equipment) demands skills, training and money. Countries that half-arse this get half-arse results.

The Americans learned a WWII lesson. Learn your boat until you can draw it from memory and make sure the interfaces are IDIOT PROOFED so that valves and mechanical connectionss go only one way. The data link for the SEAL to enable the fish for wire guidance was installed UPSIDE DOWN.

 

[Riain]

Building full sized aircraft carriers is an expensive business and prone to huge cost escalation that can be the ruination of Ministers and even Governments. The Heath Government knew this and was determined to limit the risks of this occurring to them, determined not to be penny wise and pound foolish. They undertook a carefully scheduled acquisition programme for the items they needed for the two carriers as well as their escorts, taking advantage of the considerable discounts available when purchasing in bulk. Their initial order for the Type 988 radar from the Dutch had been for four units while the order for 12 Olympus engines for the carriers was batched with the 10 required for the five Type 42 destroyers also ordered in 1971. This harked back to the days of the ‘Two Power Standard’ prior to WW1 which removed the Royal Navy from the vagaries of funding from year to year. Enough had been done that by mid 1973 the Government was able to place an order for the second CVA to begin construction the day after the current ship was launched,(1) secure in the knowledge that everything was in place.

The first of the four Type 988 radars that had been ordered, along with a pair for the Dutch, went to sea in the HMS Bristol(2) for a series of trials. This Type 82 Guided Missile Destroyer Leader had been ordered in the aftermath of the original cancellation of the CVA 01 was the lead ship for a large number of different weapons and system due to enter service. As a result she did not deploy alongside other ships in the RN but began a year of trials, testing and validating the many new systems this transformation ship bought into service.

Another long anticipated piece of equipment entering the trials and acceptance stage in 1973 was the Jaguar fighter-bomber.(3) Designed for maneuverability along the lines of the F14 rather than high performance at low level this single seat air superiority and ground attack cold best be described at efficient. A pair of compact, 3 shaft RB.199 engines of 19,000lb thrust(4) gave the 40-45,000lb class fighter a greater than unity thrust level on 2/3 full tanks. Yet these engines were the most fuel efficient afterburning turbofans in the world, giving the compact but powerful Jaguar a flight endurance of 3 hours when carrying slim, ‘supersonic’ drop tanks. The TSR2 derived radar give a long range and look-down capability while a mach sweep indicator automatically swept the wings to the most efficient angle for the flight regime, unlike the F111 which had 4 settings to be chosen by the pilot in the heat of combat. Armed with four Blue Jay SARH developments of the Red Top(5), 2 carried semi-conformally on the fuselage, and four SRAAM dogfight missiles(6) promised to make this aircraft lethal. The initial production batch had been ordered and was due to be delivered in the next year.

This was also the year that the Israeli Chieftain connection paid off in terms of export business with the first delivery of Chieftain Mk3/3P to Iran against ongoing requirement for over 2,000 tanks.(7) The Shah was shaping up not just as an export customer but also a development partner for advanced versions of the Chieftain that, like the Flakpanzer Falcon sponsored by the Netherlands, could end up in British service.(6)

1. IOTL Illustrious was ordered a year before Invincible was launched 76 and 77 respectively
2. IOTL SEPECAT Jaguars entered RAF service for trials and OCU in 1973
3. IOTL Bristol had Type 50s vintage 965 and 992 radars of very poor performance
4. IOTL early RB.199s had ~15,000lbs of thrust, but were very efficient
5. IOTL Blue Jay Km5 was the name of the radar guided Firestreak/Red Top development canceled in 1958
6. IOTL Taildog-SRAAM was downgraded to technology demonstrator in 1974
7. IOTL the British never deployed a SPAAG

 

[Riain]

Unsurprisingly the Cabinet recoiled in horror at the price to ‘ABM proof’ the submarine nuclear missile deterrent, estimated to be One Billion Pounds.(1) Over weeks and months the Ministers came to terms with the fact that their freedom of action was limited in this area. The Polaris A2 had been replaced in production by the A3 even before Britain had received hers, with the A3 now out of production and to be out of service British missiles would be ‘orphans’, increasingly difficult to maintain outside of the US supply system. They concurred with the recommendation that Britain utilise her own warhead development and maximize range and decoy load rather than follow the USN route of 10-14 warheads per missile. On the question that using all the available plutonium on Poseidon warheads would leave none for any RAF weapons it was noted that existing RE.179 warheads could be repurposed for aircraft bombs much larger than anything currently in the RAF inventory.(2) The Cabinet gave approval for this project, named Chevaline, to proceed in July and announced it Parliament in August.(3)

In October of that year an event occurred that long since has been recognised as being the end of the Post War era. On the 6th the combined force of Egypt and Syria attacked Israel during the feast of Yom Kippur, crossing the Suez Canal and advancing in the Golan Heights. Caught unprepared and unmobilised Israel fought back hard but faced several surprises in the form of anti tank missiles and integrated mobile SAMs and AA guns causing serious losses to Israeli aircraft and tanks. The situation was so dire, particularly in the Golan Heights, that Israel prepared to use nuclear weapons in her defence, an even that prompted the US to match the Soviet Union’s efforts and undertake huge airlift to supply her client Israel with the materiel she needed to win the war. As the war toward it’s third week the Arab members of OPEC lead by Saudi Arabia announced a 5% cut in oil production, followed two days later by an oil embargo on perceived supporters of Israel including Britain and the US. Britain, along with most of Western Europe imported 80% of her oil from the Middle east and as a result refused to let US aircraft engaged in the airlift to Israel land at British controlled airfields. In Europe only Portugal assisted the US by allowing the use of facilities in the Azores, however this was enough and after 19 days of vicious fighting Israel had prevailed.

1. IOTL Chevaline went over time and budget and is estimated to have cost 1 billion pounds
2. IOTL ~48 'Reggie' secondaries made redundant by Chevaline were re used in WE.177C bombs
3. IOTL Chevaline upgrade to Polaris A3TK was kept secret by Heath and remained so partly by virtue of political circumstances until 1979 when the spending could no longer be hidden.

 

[Riain]

In the wake of the Arab-Israeli War, oil embargo and production cuts oil prices, which had risen about 2% annually for decades jumped 300% in five months while production was cut by 25% creating petrol shortages and fights at petrol stations. There was even talk of rationing in Britain using coupons leftover from WW2 while the CPI jumped some 20%. The onset of change was so sudden and so drastic that many people had no idea what to do, least of all the British voting public in the General Election held in February 1974. Both Labour and the Conservatives fell short of a majority and with the Conservatives unwilling to form a coalition government with the Liberals Labour’s Harold Macmillan became Prime Minister for a second time at the head of the first minority government in Britain since 1929.

Minority, coalition governments in the Westminster system are not prone to court controversy, lest their fragile and unnatural coalitions fracture and they lose their grip on power. As a result in Defence the year was on ‘autopilot’, CVA01 was launched and the next day CVA02 laid down using the material accumulated during the previous year, the next batch of Jaguars was delivered and another planned order confirmed while the Chevaline project continued unhindered. The big event in British foreign affairs was the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, where RAF TSR2 and Lightning were based and nuclear weapons stored. However this state of affairs in British politics did not last long, a General Election was called for October 10, the first time 2 general elections had been held in the same year since 1910. The result was a Labour victory with a majority in the Commons of a mere two seats, but a majority nonetheless, ending 8 months of political inaction.

 

[Riain]

I only just realised that I've forgotten to give the TSR2 a name..

Should I bother to fix that?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

I only just realised that I've forgotten to give the TSR2 a name..

Should I bother to fix that?

You probably should

 

[Riain]

You probably should

To what? I've heard Richmond mooted as British bombers were named after cities and there was a Richmond in Britain and Australia. But I'd prefer something way cooler, maybe Viper as it replaced the V bombers.

 

[Dannyboy]

To what? I've heard Richmond mooted as British bombers were named after cities and there was a Richmond in Britain and Australia. But I'd prefer something way cooler, maybe Viper as it replaced the V bombers.

Maybe Vengeance?

 

[Riain]

Maybe Vengeance?

Oooh, I like it.

 

[Riain]

With a new year and a new, majority, Government came a new Defence White Paper, named after Minister of Defence Mason. A telling statement, buried deep in the White Paper’s many pages, showed how the Heath Government’s decision to build a pair of aircraft carriers was now driving Defence policy rather than policy driving acquisition. The White paper noted that while any NATO country can contribute an Armoured Brigade or a Fighter Wing only Britain in all of European NATO can contribute a Strike Carrier Battle Group. This was a subtle acknowledgement of an adoption of a Naval and Peripheral Strategy as Britain’s contribution to NATO, at the expense of RAFG and BAOR is necessary.(1) However if Britain was stuck with Strike Carrier she would make the most of them, so apart from some residual forces on Cyprus the British presence in the Mediterranean, a British lake for centuries, would be withdrawn and largely disbanded. Given the increased availability of Gas Turbine carriers it was announced that HMS Eagle would be retired as soon as the refit and building schedule of the new CVAs would allow it. Other major ships to go as a result of this review were the cruiser HMS Blake and Commando carrier HMS Bulwark, however HMS Ark Royal’s imminent retirement had long been planned.

The RAF also suffered cuts, with half of the 29 strong Belfast fleet being retired and the remainder amalgamated into a single, large squadron.(2) This was the tone of the review for the RAF, with units withdrawn from the Far and Near East, wings or squadrons disbanded while filling up RAFG and Strike Command Wings and Squadrons to get economise on Headquarters. The number of units in BAOR was also reduced, however this was presented as an increase in REFORGER strength. The overall trend could be called downsizing by modernisation, with old equipment being retired and units reduced faster than new equipment was acquired. There was considerable continuity as well as change, including the confirmation of a new class of large ASW frigates and more Type 42 destroyers as well as the ongoing acquisition of Jaguar fighters, while the commitment to the nuclear deterrent meant the continuation of the Chevaline projet.

The Mason review also formalised into policy the diplomatic and commercial reality that in these troubled times the Shah of Iran’s tank requirements were driving tank development in Britain. With the failure of the US-German MBT-70 project in 1970 and the US decision to go it alone in 1971 the Germans approached Britain as a prospective development partner for a next generation tank, utilising the development work already done with the MBT-70 project. Simultaneously the Iranians were working on the FV4030 series of AFVs, based on the Chieftain tank in three phases. Phase 1 was an improved Chieftain Mk5 with an 850hp engine,(3) fully automatic controller for the TN12 gearbox, a 50 imp gal fuel capacity increase, thickened underbelly mine armour and shock absorbers fitted to the front and rear suspension units. This vehicle offered the opportunity for a significant upgrade path for the existing British Chieftain fleet. Phase 2 incorporated the Chieftain hull front and turret casting. The rear of the hull was reconfigured to accept a new power pack comprising Rolls-Royce 30 litre CV12 1200 HP engine,(4) David Brown TN37 transmission improved Super Horstmann suspension, new final drives and tracks. Britain had no direct interest in this tank, however it would foster the development of the new engine of greatly increased power and development potential and it’c accompanying transmission. Phase 3 represented a completely new-MBT incorporating Burlington armour to the hull and turret, as tested on the FV4211 prototype from 1971. The rear of the hull similar in design to the Phase 2 but with hydrogas suspension, improved command & control and new commander's day/night sight. Weighing these two options carefully the Wilson government noted the drastic cost increase and diverging US and German requirements of the MBT-70 programme compared to the logical and beneficial development path of the FV4030 and decided to undertake the Future-MBT project with Iran using the FV4030 family of tanks, with Phase 3 F-MBT becoming known as MBT-80.(5)

1. IOTL the naval contribution was ASW forces in the Eastern Atlantic
2. IOTL the RAF disposed of all it’s 10 Belfasts in 1976 as a result of the Mason review.
3. IOTL 4030 Phase 1 kept the L60 with 750hp
4. IOTL the RR CV12 was 26 litres, a big jump from the L60s 19 litre capacity
5. IOTL Britain signed on to the F-MBT project with Germany

 

[Dannyboy]

Btw what is the new Carrier(s) called?

 

[Riain]

Nothing, ships don't get named until commissioning.

However these are undoubtedly Capital Ships they will take the names given to the first two Capital Ships built during the reign of the Monarch.

 

[Riain]

Air resources within the Canadian Forces had suffered from a long period of neglect and downsizing during the late 1960s and early 1970s that led to the aging of much of their military equipment. In the early 1970s the government came under increasing pressure from its NATO allies to redress this imbalance. During the 1970s, the Canadian Forces was tasked with four primary military duties; air defence of North America as part of NORAD, anti-submarine and related duties in the North Atlantic as part of NATO, a small role within the overall land-force structure of NATO in Western Europe, and the specialist role of reinforcing Norway with one brigade and all required air, sea and other support that might be needed for that mission (collectively known as "CAST"). With the exception of air transport, equipment for all of these tasks was deemed to be lacking. This period came to an end in November 1975 after the governing Liberal Party of Canada's tenth National Convention saw a policy reversing defence budget cutbacks in the early 1970s and the beginning of a modernization process across the entire Canadian Forces structure; this followed a decision in September 1975 that saw all air resources within the Canadian Forces merged into a new entity called Air Command (AIRCOM). As there had been little military capital expenditure over the prior five years, modernizing the forces would be an expensive process. In order to lower fiscal spending for the ambitious program, a series of individual procurement projects were proposed to be spread out over the five-year period from 1977 to 1982.

 

[Riain]

Once the decision had been made to undertake the project and spend the money actually developing the British Poseidon missile(1) was easy, as far as adapting an American nuclear missile for British requirements is. The missile itself, including the PBV bus, were fully developed and merely needed loading with the warheads and decoy mix Britain wished to employ. It was decided to load each PBV with five warheads each to utilise the 500kg of plutonium produced from the 1967 authorisation for a total of 240 warheads.(2) Calculations had shown that the Poseidon guidance system maintained accuracy beyond it’s stated 2,500nm out to 3,000nm but past that accuracy dropped off precipitously. Calculating these two figures gave Britain the weight allowance for decoys, which in the event was quite generous.

For the Poseidon C3K warhead the British developed a new ‘super hardened’ primary named ‘Harriet’ and mated it to the Reggie secondary from the WE.177B(3) to give a warhead yield of 225kt. As the USN withdrew Polaris A1 and A2 in favour of Poseidon the Chevaline warhead became the most powerful on any American SLBM. For the Chevaline project the British developed three-dimensional quartz phenolic (3DQP) a phenolic-based material composed of a quartz cloth material impregnated with a phenolic resin and hot-pressed. When cured, 3DQP can be machined in the same way as metals and is tough and fire-resistant. This material 'hardens' the RV protecting the nuclear warhead against high-energy neutrons emitted by exo-atmospheric ABM bursts before re-entry. While the traffic in nuclear technology arising from the US-UK 1958 MDA usually went one way Britain was always diligent in providing something important in return. As part of this UK to US traffic a licence to manufacture 3DQP in the US was acquired from the British Government and production was undertaken by AVCO, one of the two suppliers of US RVs, and used on new US RVs from the late 70s onwards.

1. IOTL the Naval Staff lobbied against Polaris Chevaline for the Poseidon for commonality reasons.
2. IOTL Britain built 96 Chevaline warheads and 126 WE.177C in the 70s with the 1967 Plutonium. ITTL the British stockpile is 23 weapons less than OTL, giving a total of 5 warheads less in the stockpile at the end of the 70s.
3. IOTL the 96 Chevaline warheads used 96 Reggie secondaries from ET.317, the surplus 48 Reggies were used in 48 of the 126 WE.177s with new 58 Reggie production for a total of 202 Reggies. ITTL 406 Reggies will be produced, which is where the wank is.

 

[Riain]

In late 1975 trouble began brewing again in Guatemala, a civil war looking like it would lead to an invasion of Belize. This time rather than send a carrier the Wilson government detached a flight of six RAF Harriers on a 5 month deployment. Once the trouble had subsided these were withdrawn again, however with this being the second intervention in 3 years the picture did not look rosy.

In March 1976 Prime Minister Wilson announced his retirement, leading to a leadership election within the Parliamentary Labour party in which the outgoing Wilson endorsed Jame Callaghan. Callaghan was duly elected to lead a government which had lost it’s slim majority won in 1974 due to by-elections not going Labour’s way. Late in the year he was faced with an interesting challenge when a party from the Argentine Air Force landed on Southern Thule, a tiny possession on the edge of the Antarctic Circle, and constructed a small military base complete with barracks and a concrete helicopter landing pad. They set up a weather station, a radio station, and a flagpole from which the Argentine flag flew. The base was named Corbeta Uruguay and it was not until December that the British discovered what had happened.

Looking back at almost two decades since the first Post War Defence White Paper, the one that ushered in the 'modern' era in British defence, Britain could be said to have been modestly successful with Defence procurement and associated industries such as aviation. She had managed to bring into series production the Lightning, Buccaneer, Harrier, TSR2 Vengance and now the Jaguar however, as designed specific to British defence needs none had sold well on the export market. The Vengance had lost it’s only export prospect in Australia to the US F111, the Buccaneer sold only to South Africa which also was one the three small scale Lightning customers. Only the Harrier could be seen as an export success with 110 sold to the US Marines and another 10 to the Spanish Navy, exceeding the number built for the RAF. British ships had sold better, the Type12/Leander class was built in large numbers worldwide and privately designed Vosper Corvettes, Frigates even Destroyers had sold to Iran, Libya, Nigeria and Brazil, even the RN had bought the Mk9 as the Type 21. But the big designs had not done as well, the County class had lost to the US Charles F Adams in Australia and while Argentina bought two Type 42s the Sea Dart was unsuccessful against the American Tartar for the Dutch DLGs. Armoured vehicles had done better with over 1,500 Chieftain tanks exported, far more than the number in service with the UK with more sales in prospect and a development path to a new MBT. On the civil side of the aviation equation, so necessary for a healthy industry, Britain had managed to sell over 700 of the ‘class of 64’(1) with the BAC311 now taking up the mantle. While Britain’s products had a limited appeal, often being too specialised or costly, Britain had a reputation as a good partner to work with and one which was ever mindful of costs when it could control them, which would stand them in good stead if they had a desirable product to sell.

1. IOTL 415 VC10, Trident and BAC111 were sold.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

There had not yet been an HMS King George VI (OTL the 4th Dreadnought SSBN sub is planned to be named KGV VI) due to naming issues of the KGV Battleships - the first new capital ships coming into serve after a new reign were generally named after the newest King / Queen but KGV VI instead asked for the ship to be named after his father.

So we could have the first ship named HMS King George VI in respect to this 'new' tradition?

And the second one HMS Queen Elizabeth II or possibly named after Winston (he passed away in 65)