A Second Tirpitz

The Prologue

“The British have squandered their Empire. They have failed to keep the native populations in line - they have even armed them to fight against the good German soldier. They deserve to be pulled down and replaced by a nation that will take the Aryan race to its deserved place in the sun.

Britain, like all empires is proud and jealous of its status. It will exert all energies to prevent a rival from rising, only acquiescing into obsequious deference once it has been outmanouvered.

The British do not care for their army. Time and again, they have sent forth a small force and shrugged when it was defeated. Yet its navy! Threaten the navy and you threaten its heart, its soul. Put a hole in the steel wall, break the navy, and Britain will scuttle back into its shell.”

Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler, 1924​

1. In following the Chancellors wishes the leadership of the Reichsmarine has devised a plan to neutralise the British. Its intent is to significantly degrade the Royal Navy Home Fleet, so knocking a hole in the steel walls of the British Isles. Such a hole will force the British to retain more of their army and air-force at home, reducing the force available to support any of their Allies.

2. The Reichsmarine will be unable to deploy a fleet of sufficient size to defeat the Royal Navy in anything more than detail. We must therefore ensure concentration against small elements, the main plan being to utilise the threat of individual surface commerce raiders to split up the Royal Navy into hunting groups which may be destroyed in detail by a strong KM force.

3. The Kriegsmarine Force must win the reconnaissance battle; concentrate enough force to defeat a Royal Navy hunting group; have enough speed to escape a battle fleet; contain individual units whose finding fixing and defeat requires the Royal Navy to produce Hunting Groupss.

4. Proposed Fleet contains 6 Battleships as the main strike force; 2 Aircraft Carriers and a number of light cruisers to win the recce battle; 4 heavy cruiser commerce raiders

5. Such a fleet falls outside of the Treaty of Versailles and agreed limits within the London Naval Treaty and will be met by a reaction by the UK. However, such a reaction is costly, with Britain remaining in a parlous financial state it will likely reduce funding to its other forces, indirectly achieving part of the mission.

6. This is recognised as a significant increase in the requirement for the Reichsmarine, but will return the prestige of the German Volk in naval matters

Reichsmarine Briefing Note written shortly after the rise of Hitler​

WvF - Developing such a fleet would leave the army seriously deficient in artillery and with little chance to produce a large panzer arm. Such a direction would leave us weaker than the Soviets, the French, even the Poles and Czechs!

HG - Artillery is obsolete! High explosive can be dropped with greater precision from the skies, and a plane that strikes here this morning may strike here this afternoon. Let my airforce be your artillery, general.

Memo, Command Staff Meeting early 1934. From later actions it is assumed Goering was promised control of the carrier force​

All members of the German Reich are to act in support of the creation of a fleet to number this size in preparation for war no later than 1941. They are to provide all aid required by the bearer of this Note

Adolf Hitler
 
So, there have been a few threads recently where the idea of Nazi Germany acting earlier to develop a fleet to defeat the British has come up. I thought I'd try and see what would happen, given the limitations the Nazi state was acting under throughout its life.

A bunch of the economic numbers will be out - I'm estimating from various general histories and naval histories, but I hope it'll even out, be minor, or be caught by my learned colleagues here.

Also, the early rise of 'Working to the Fuhrer' by the German Navy may be improbable - but its the only way I could think of getting a naval increase in the early years, which is necessary for a sufficient rise in the Naval strength.
Hope y'all enjoy!
 
Nice start, but Britain is going to 'wake up' to the Nazi threat much earlier than IOTL. Like in the run-up to World War I, Britain will know that a powerful German fleet can only be for one thing - the destruction of the Royal Navy. Britain might be in a bad financial state, but it still has more money than Germany.

I assume the 'Sitzkrieg' will last longer than OTL without a strong Panzer arm? Strange, it may very well end with Britain partially/totally occupied and France fighting on!
 
Oh, absolutely agree with both of you - Britain will react with to the obvious threat, probably with a significantly increased building programme for ships.

As I say - this is intended to look at the probable results of Nazi Germany attempting to focus of defeating the Naval powers. The strategy I have shown is what I believe to be the most likely to work (as of 1934!) but only if they keep everything secret, and then everything goes their way. Not likely
 
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abc123

Banned
Trouble is, Germany can either have a Navy that can defeat the RN or army & air force that can defeat Poland & France, but not both...

Anybody rational in charge of Germany would choose army & air force option...
;)
 
Britain will be nervous about any increase in our naval strength, and so a calming measure is necessary. While designing our fast battleships we will work with the British government to achieve an agreement limiting our capital ship build. Such an agreement is non binding on the Volk but will calm British fears while we build our strength

Reich Foreign Ministry memorandum​

The Anglo-German Naval Agreement is now seen as the first of Adolf Hitlers faithless treaties, soon to include assurances given over Austria, the Munich Agreement and so on. At the time it was divisive, as many saw it as Britain allowing the lapse of the Treaty of Versailles in it’s own interests, essentially throwing the French and Italians to the German wolf.

NAM Rodger, In the Defence of Freedom: A Naval History of Britian vol 3 1815 - 1991

It is considered that while having a larger gun will significantly increase the capability of the class, to delay until the completion of the design of turrets to hold 38cm guns will result in the inability to produce enough ships to concentrate sufficiently against the English Navy. Therefore it is the recommendation of the OKM that the updated D-class design with three turrets be put into immediate production, with two in number ships being laid down (at the Kriegsmarinewerft and Deutsche Werke yards). These will continue to hold the reporting names Ersatz Elsass and Ersatz Hessen, which move should reduce the possibility of British spies identifying the change. At the same time the design for new, more powerful battleships and aircraft carrier will continue, with the aim to lay down a carrier by 1936 and battleships immediately after the Elsass and Hessen are complete, with additional ships being built to the number of available capital ship slips. This means that the planned update of the Deutschland class is to be replaced by battleships

Conclusion of the Report into Capital Ship Production, OKM, 1935​

Reconnaissance will be key to victory for Volk in this struggle against the most powerful navy in the world. While the aircraft carrier is a significant capability increase, the conditions of the North Sea are not consistently suitable for airpower to be used. Therefore, the traditional scouting arm of the naval forces - the Cruiser - will remain key to the success of the battle against England. We currently have six light cruisers, and would require at least that number again, with further development of the Leipzig class thought best.

Such an increase may require a reduction in other ship builds - submarines or destroyers, due to cost, material and slip shortfalls. This is accepted as these smaller ships and boats are less useful in the new doctrine.

OKM Report into further ship requirements​
 
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Oooh, RN ship porn coming up as soon as they work out what's going on! Does this mean we get to see actual Lion class battleships and maybe the Audacious class in WW2 fitout? :D

Edit: Oh, and fewer U-boats. Any First Lord who sees this to compare to OTL will be smiling like a Cheshire Cat for weeks!
 
Such an increase may require a reduction in other ship builds - submarines or destroyers, due to cost, material and slip shortfalls. This is accepted as these smaller ships and boats are less useful in the new doctrine.

OKM Report into further ship requirements​
Wait, so you're building a surface fleet intended for fleet actions, but you're planning on skimping on the screen?

Two ends there:
1. Just out of the German port British submarines enjoy a shooting fish in a barrel.
2. Find British fleet, bring it to action. Oh shit, big heap Destroyers! Can't turn main armament on them... we're busy with the British Battleships. Can knock them about with the secondary battery but that's not good enough to stop them. Guess we'll eat a few tin-fish.
;)
 
Wait, so you're building a surface fleet intended for fleet actions, but you're planning on skimping on the screen?

Two ends there:
1. Just out of the German port British submarines enjoy a shooting fish in a barrel.
2. Find British fleet, bring it to action. Oh shit, big heap Destroyers! Can't turn main armament on them... we're busy with the British Battleships. Can knock them about with the secondary battery but that's not good enough to stop them. Guess we'll eat a few tin-fish.
;)

Yep. Theyre still resource limited and are reducing numbers of what they see as less important ship types. There will still be some destroyers, of course, just not enough.

Same for u boats. They don't help the aim, so are lessened. Logical, but the RN are laughing.
 
Yep. Theyre still resource limited and are reducing numbers of what they see as less important ship types. There will still be some destroyers, of course, just not enough.

Same for u boats. They don't help the aim, so are lessened. Logical, but the RN are laughing.
Ah, you recognize the downsides of German moves. I was just a little worried this TL was going to go down other paths where German mistakes will not bite 'em on the arse...
 
I gave the issue of a better Kreigs marine some thought recently

Rather than going balls to the walls and building lots of battleships I thought the following

Build all of the Heavy Cruisers - ensure that they have good range and 8" Guns as well as a good clip of speed.

Build enough light Cruisers - 8 odd to operate in the Baltic/North Sea

Keep B + T but have the same armament as the S + G ie triple 11" but 4 turrets vice 3

Armour as was but make sure the bloody things can do 32 knots - so basically they can outrun anything they cannot outfight or cannot fight without taking damage i.e. anything with 15" guns!!!

Basically with good speed and range the Heavy Cruisers and the Battleships can operate together and surge into the Atlantic making stopping them a much harder proposition for the Royal Navy.....even if they never did this the threat of such a sortie would give Sea Lords Stomach Ulcers

I think the idea of building 2 units with 8 x 15" gun armed Battleships capable of taking on the then British battleships was foolish.

Convert as many Raiders as possible more than OTL

Don't both with carriers Germany has not got any experience with them and by the time the first one is built the other powers would have noticed - so there would be no time to build up operational 'tribal knowledge' within the German Navy.

My suggestion would be to build dedicated Sea Plane Support ships and concentrate on a decent long range Sea Plane with an acceptable surface attack ability

Oh and Submarines......
 
I gave the issue of a better Kreigs marine some thought recently

Rather than going balls to the walls and building lots of battleships I thought the following

Build all of the Heavy Cruisers - ensure that they have good range and 8" Guns as well as a good clip of speed.

Build enough light Cruisers - 8 odd to operate in the Baltic/North Sea

Keep B + T but have the same armament as the S + G ie triple 11" but 4 turrets vice 3

Armour as was but make sure the bloody things can do 32 knots - so basically they can outrun anything they cannot outfight or cannot fight without taking damage i.e. anything with 15" guns!!!

Basically with good speed and range the Heavy Cruisers and the Battleships can operate together and surge into the Atlantic making stopping them a much harder proposition for the Royal Navy.....even if they never did this the threat of such a sortie would give Sea Lords Stomach Ulcers

I think the idea of building 2 units with 8 x 15" gun armed Battleships capable of taking on the then British battleships was foolish.

Convert as many Raiders as possible more than OTL

Don't both with carriers Germany has not got any experience with them and by the time the first one is built the other powers would have noticed - so there would be no time to build up operational 'tribal knowledge' within the German Navy.

My suggestion would be to build dedicated Sea Plane Support ships and concentrate on a decent long range Sea Plane with an acceptable surface attack ability

Oh and Submarines......

Yeah, I think that may be a better way - but the thing that germinated this idea was a number of time lines that had the Germans develop a fleet and bash the RN in preparation for Sealion. So I'm trying to see the repercussions of such a move.
 
This is interesting and I commend on you covering you bases and not simply turning this into some sort of unworkable Germany wank as pervious threads have done.
 
....
Keep B + T but have the same armament as the S + G ie triple 11" but 4 turrets vice 3

Armour as was but make sure the bloody things can do 32 knots - so basically they can outrun anything they cannot outfight or cannot fight without taking damage i.e. anything with 15" guns!!!
....
I think the idea of building 2 units with 8 x 15" gun armed Battleships capable of taking on the then British battleships was foolish.
..............

Would this really work cant GB just build 8x14' (or 9x14') BCs (with the speed needed (do they need to be as fast as the KM that will have to travel longer and run out of fuel if they stay at 32+ ) and just kill them without any trouble from 11' guns that cant hurt anything with decent deck/belt ?


Fundamental I think this doesn't work as if you start building up the KM from 34 (more than was done anyway, you run out of army/air force and the British outspend/out build you and then go to war over Munich......
 
Oooh, RN ship porn coming up as soon as they work out what's going on! Does this mean we get to see actual Lion class battleships and maybe the Audacious class in WW2 fitout? :D ...

Meh.. forget those obsolecent tubs. I'll be building more and larger aircraft carriers, and deploying some better aircraft for them.
 
Would this really work cant GB just build 8x14' (or 9x14') BCs (with the speed needed (do they need to be as fast as the KM that will have to travel longer and run out of fuel if they stay at 32+ ) and just kill them without any trouble from 11' guns that cant hurt anything with decent deck/belt ?


Fundamental I think this doesn't work as if you start building up the KM from 34 (more than was done anyway, you run out of army/air force and the British outspend/out build you and then go to war over Munich......

Yes - Britain would just build 6 - 8 faster KGVs (Replacing the Revenges/BCs but ensuring that they have 2 : 1 ratio where possible) possibly with slightly less armour (although there is the Italian Battleships to think of) possibly with the original 3 x Quad 14" as well as Heavy Towns (Pretty much as Light Towns but with twin or Triple 8" Turrets instead of the Triple 6" ones) and more likely to effectively give the Anglo-German Naval Agreement the finger.

The French will respond with a slightly faster Richelieu class

I am thinking from the KMs position in 1933/34 - they have no idea that the British are planning the KGVs or Illustrious class CVs - but they must be aware that it is pointless to try to build a fleet to take on the most powerful navy in the world which is backed by the then most skilled ship building industry without kicking off an arms race they cannot win with the British building 2 for every German Capital ship.

Its impossible for the Germans to match the RN therefore it does make sense for them to think about ensuring that their ships are faster than most of the British ones and capable of threatening the Atlantic Trade - even if they do not sortie (Fleet in Being).

There thinking would be that even if they did sortie then it would be multiple ships punching through at one spot - even if they sink nothing - that's possibly 2 or 3 weeks where Trade is seriously disrupted and suddenly a single old Battleship is no longer enough to defend a given convoy (in the minds of the allied Admirals - the KM is not about to risk damage from 15" in this TL as per OTL even if they out number it).
 
Oooh, RN ship porn coming up as soon as they work out what's going on! Does this mean we get to see actual Lion class battleships and maybe the Audacious class in WW2 fitout? :D

Edit: Oh, and fewer U-boats. Any First Lord who sees this to compare to OTL will be smiling like a Cheshire Cat for weeks!

That's exactly what I came here to say!

Ps. Can we have some of these, cause I need to see them in more TLs.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/magnif_f.htm

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/vigour_f.htm
 
Meh.. forget those obsolecent tubs. I'll be building more and larger aircraft carriers, and deploying some better aircraft for them.
<Cough> The Audacious class was an aircraft carrier, 40,000 tonnes or so and when the last of the class decommissioned in 1979 she operated Phantoms and Buccaneers. They were laid down in 1942 in OTL, but no reason not to bring that forward a year or two if the Germans are being troublesome.
 
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