A Red Dawn: American Revolution and Rebirth

[Libertad]

Reds! and A Red Dawn are perhaps, bar none I would say, the greatest 'Red America' TLs that I've seen. It's one of those 'cliché concepts that everyone talks about, but no one ever seems to go about writing.' You've painted a picture of a world that's both very familiar, yet very alien at the same time - and this, I feel, is what the best AH manage to accomplish. Even if some might call it that, I don't think it ever comes off as a wank (and, indeed, in some respects, I'd argue this TL is somewhat dystopic). When the UASR does something bad, there's no shying away from it or excusing them.

It's more of an ideological wank than a nation wank... and with a longer Cold War, it's somewhat dystopic yes of course.

Well, the OTL USA has its own story of doing things bad but it's not much taken noticed especially by the general American population thanks to the corporate-military complex control of the media system, the capitalist way of censoring material and the manufacturing of public consent which UASR would not have due to its more democratic way of life. So, yes, Jello made sure that he can balance things out from the point of view of most readers here in AH.com by having an ATL book written from an anarchist or Trotskyite perspective describing out the way that America has an "unapologetic secret police force" which is just called the "intelligence community" here in OTL USA, which not only do foreign spying but also domestic surveillance.

I suppose that I do have some reservations still, though. This is also more of a general question to the other readers: while I have my doubts about the long term viability of the FBU for varying reasons, what makes me scratch my head probably the most is India. If she's not going to be going independent - and will stay within the Empire - doesn't this mean that, eventually, both France and the U.K. (really, the entire entity as a whole) going to end up as 'colonies,' so to speak? Literally for some of them, more metaphorical for others? It has enough of a population to, if pushed in the right manner, dominate the entity, dwarfing some populations several times over. I suppose it makes sense from a propaganda standpoint for the FBU to try to get them to stay on board, especially with the eventual loss of Indochina in the Far East to, it looks like, the Americans, but the masters could eventually find themselves the servants...

I think this would be cleared out in the post-war thread in the future which Jello would be doing where the constitutional structure of the FBU would be further described. And no, I think I know what Jello and IP is thinking about this comment... The FBU would not become Indian dominated from a political standpoint most likely... even economically. I think the FBU is more of an EU like entity mixed with being like a UN too rather than a Federal FBU, where India would naturally dominate.., so no problems on your concerns of the future Indian domination of the entity. Of course, London and Paris would not allow such a thing to happen.

But I agree with you on my doubts on the longer sustainability of the FBU. I've got my reasons.... but even from a materialist perspective, I doubt this. Even the fact that the FBU can even have a chance to be at the level of the UASR and USSR. Sure, the FBU is stronger than OTL counterparts... but still... I don't know.

 

[Nevermore]

...the manufacturing of public consent which UASR would not have due to its more democratic way of life.

Um, the UASR *does* manufacture public opinion, though. It's most notable at the moment because we're still in the honeymoon period of the revolution, but it's pretty prevalent. Rampant atheism, flouting of old sexual mores, etc. They're good because they're not bourgeoisie. Like you mentioned, there's also the unseemly fact of a secret police not only being present - but comforting to the public. This isn't to mention the instilling of voting on many, many more things in life, enforced campaigns against sexism, racism or homophobia (not that those are bad things). The UASR very much has its own ideological agenda it constantly pushes on the American public, especially its apparent view that exporting revolution is good if the situation allows it.

The FBU would not become Indian dominated from a political standpoint most likely... even economically. I think the FBU is more of an EU like entity mixed with being like a UN too rather than a Federal FBU, where India would naturally dominate.., so no problems on your concerns of the future Indian domination of the entity. Of course, London and Paris would not allow such a thing to happen.

I would agree that a federal FBU probably won't happen. That makes the 'India not going anywhere' argument a little easier to swallow. Thing is, though, I really don't see what the FBU can do to not wake up the sleeping tiger that is India. They have the population, resources (and if they don't, they can trade for them with the FBU, likely eager to keep its allies) and, I would imagine, massive investments of education from the mother countries. But this presents a problem: once your populace starts getting educated, they're not going to like being lorded over too much, especially when there's a ton more of them than you. Not to mention, I don't think I'd particularly care for being a second class citizen in this whole deal.

On the other hand, if India is just let be, this is going to make the intellectuals and statesmen (few in number as they are, they're going to be necessary collaborators) who, even if they don't like the Americans or whomever, certainly will not like the situation they've found themselves in. This doesn't mean India goes Communist, not at all, but I see it as either leading the alliance system eventually or breaking away.

I don't mean to derail the thread, it's just a concern I've had for some time now.

 

[Libertad]

Um, the UASR *does* manufacture public opinion, though. It's most notable at the moment because we're still in the honeymoon period of the revolution, but it's pretty prevalent. Rampant atheism, flouting of old sexual mores, etc. They're good because they're not bourgeoisie. Like you mentioned, there's also the unseemly fact of a secret police not only being present - but comforting to the public. This isn't to mention the instilling of voting on many, many more things in life, enforced campaigns against sexism, racism or homophobia (not that those are bad things). The UASR very much has its own ideological agenda it constantly pushes on the American public, especially its apparent view that exporting revolution is good if the situation allows it.

And someone noted here that capitalist criminology and methods of solving crime would have some problems due to the more visible ideological bent of the police apparatus, not that there's also that bent here in OTL America. And the level of public's comfort with the Public Safety Ministry though might not last by the time of the libertarian/anarchist oriented Second Cultural Revolution.

In terms of the OTL capitalist manufacturing of public opinion, I think it's more like the fact that an elite is manufacturing public consent on things that supposedly the public must fight against... comparing it with an elite manufacturing products that the public must have an opinion whether that product is good for them or not... which is not really the case. In the current socialist stage of American society TTL, public consent is being manufactured by a government that at least currently is correctly reflecting public attitudes... because society and culture is more liberated and democratic since we're just seeing a continuation of the 1920's mores here... only that the government is promoting them more in another level and putting them into official state promotion.

I would agree that a federal FBU probably won't happen. That makes the 'India not going anywhere' argument a little easier to swallow. Thing is, though, I really don't see what the FBU can do to not wake up the sleeping tiger that is India. They have the population, resources (and if they don't, they can trade for them with the FBU, likely eager to keep its allies) and, I would imagine, massive investments of education from the mother countries. But this presents a problem: once your populace starts getting educated, they're not going to like being lorded over too much, especially when there's a ton more of them than you. Not to mention, I don't think I'd particularly care for being a second class citizen in this whole deal.

Well, India would soon receive Dominion status after the war and I've got this feeling that India would have its own interests be served by keeping the FBU far from "EUnization" as possible. Even Indians outside the labor movement would be strongly FBU sceptics. They would like to have their course be charted all by themselves as much as possible and not be dictated too much by London as the years go by. I'm seeing this from India's OTL as part of the Non-Aligned Movement. This might be the case here in OTL too, and this can only happen by being not tied too much from FBU regulations. And London has to be careful about this case with India. The Dominion promotion of India would move it away from being "second class" as just a crown colony, so I think it's fine enough.

Nevertheless, I would still like a socialist Indian federal republic as what Jello originally conceived of India.

On the other hand, if India is just let be, this is going to make the intellectuals and statesmen (few in number as they are, they're going to be necessary collaborators) who, even if they don't like the Americans or whomever, certainly will not like the situation they've found themselves in. This doesn't mean India goes Communist, not at all, but I see it as either leading the alliance system eventually or breaking away.

I don't mean to derail the thread, it's just a concern I've had for some time now.

India is promoted towards having self-government in the same manner as the white dominions, so I think those Indian elite would have it this way and London would compromise... India is just different from Canada or Australia. And again, this might be a way less united India due to the Indian Muslim-Hindu division and of course those native princes who would most likely be made part of the FBU structure as more autonomous from the control of Delhi than the provinces. This is not just the same India as OTL.

 

[Enigmajones]

Is there a map for this tl?

 

[Libertad]

I think so... I've seen something like a 1935 world map but it's not Jello who made it but a fan of this TL. In the complete comprehensive TL pre-1933, there are some maps of WW1 battles and of course electoral maps...

 

[Archangel]

Well guys, I probably won't be on much in the near future. I just learned that my mother has just passed away after a two year long battle with cancer, and I will in disposed for some time.

My condolences, Jello.

 

[stirlingdraka]

Jello you have my deepest condolences. Take your time.

 

[Thinker1200]

Ummm wow Jello. I.....i really cant say much other than im sorry about your loss.

Believe me i wish i could.

 

[Derekc2]

Quistion Jello, is the Hunchback of Notre-dame still around ITTL? More importantly, does it have the awesome songs and the same basic plot?

Also sorry about what happend to your mom. My condences.

 

[ANARCHY_4_ALL]

Congratulations Jello you won the Best Continuing Early 20th Century Turtledove.

 

[The Uchronian]

Congratulations Jello you won the Best Continuing Early 20th Century Turtledove.

And well deserved, too, IMO.

Jello, I hope you're doing okay out there.

 

[Aelita]

Quistion Jello, is the Hunchback of Notre-dame still around ITTL? More importantly, does it have the awesome songs and the same basic plot?

Also sorry about what happend to your mom. My condences.

Is it my favorite Disney film, so it will probably show up in some form

Congratulations Jello you won the Best Continuing Early 20th Century Turtledove.

Thanks.

And well deserved, too, IMO.

Jello, I hope you're doing okay out there.

Actually, I am doing surprisingly well. Like, better than I had been doing during mom's whole illness. Which is good. Escaping a two year long depressive episode is a kind of relief like you can't imagine.

 

[TNF]

Will 3D printing ITTL be seen as the thing that makes the transition to communism from socialism possible?

 

[eliphas8]

Actually, I am doing surprisingly well. Like, better than I had been doing during mom's whole illness. Which is good. Escaping a two year long depressive episode is a kind of relief like you can't imagine.

I know the feeling, when my grandfather died I kind of felt similarly relieved that it was finally over, even if it sucked at the same time. Though it probably doesn't compare to what its like to lose your mother.

 

[Aelita]

Will 3D printing ITTL be seen as the thing that makes the transition to communism from socialism possible?

Partially. But the biggest focus will, correctly, be computers and information technology, and how they relate to the central communist goal of production oriented towards use-value instead of exchange value. You can't do that with a market economy, you need a planned economy. And to have a planned economy of sufficient sophistication without relying on market mechanisms, you need cybernetics: the ability to gather, filter and process data at the right levels.

3d printing will have its crazes, but the main hope for the technology is its role in hastening the commercialization of production.

 

[Derekc2]

Jello when it shows up have it: A. do the entire script, every line, every action and every song in the ITTL Hunchback of Notre-dame, B. Have Hellfire in it sung by Judge Claude Frollo and C. take out those stupid gargoyles!

 

[Thon Taddeo]

Jello when it shows up have it: A. do the entire script, every line, every action and every song in the ITTL Hunchback of Notre-dame, B. Have Hellfire in it sung by Judge Claude Frollo and C. take out those stupid gargoyles!

The movie came out almost a century after the POD. It is rather unlikely to appear in TTL. However, Victor Hugo's works would be popular in a red America, so Disney creating some sort of adaptation is possible.

 

[Derekc2]

The movie came out almost a century after the POD. It is rather unlikely to appear in TTL. However, Victor Hugo's works would be popular in a red America, so Disney creating some sort of adaptation is possible.

Jello already said it's going to appear in some form. Just go a little further up in the page.

 

[LHB]

Jello when it shows up have it: A. do the entire script, every line, every action and every song in the ITTL Hunchback of Notre-dame, B. Have Hellfire in it sung by Judge Claude Frollo and C. take out those stupid gargoyles!

Second that and triple for item C!

 

[fernerdave]

And to have a planned economy of sufficient sophistication without relying on market mechanisms, you need cybernetics: the ability to gather, filter and process data at the right levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

Were you thinking of this?