A Realistic Reich-American Cold War

Wolfpaw

Banned
Even if not, African states will probably prefer NATO to the Nazis. Except for the British colonies of course, which are still under NATOs control. But hell, maybe Egypt etc. would be willing to co-operate (as an independent state) with Britain if surrounded by Nazis, fascist Italians, and possible Nazi puppets in the Middle East (since Hitler liked the Muslims).
They will do no such thing. The Nazis were friendly with Iranians and Indians. Arabs were thought as Semitic as Jews and the Nazi higher-ups (Hitler and Himmler included) agonized over allowing Arab volunteer brigades.

That being said, Egypt (and much of the Arab world) was a very pro-Nazi by dint of their being anti-British/anti-French. Push comes to shove, the Brits keep their boot down in Egypt as they did OTL.
Do you have a source for that?
My name's not Google, but here you go.

And even if the ethno-nationalist imperial Japanese claim that, I doubt they would really believe it or try to work toward that. For a nation planning to unite all East Asians against the West, they weren't to nice to fellow Asians.
And the USSR shot revolutionaries and crushed workers revolts. The Japanese said they were top of the East Asian heap. Their relations with blacks and Indians (and even Thais) were far more nuanced since they were basically saying, "We too can lead the Colored Races to Imperial Glory! (Or at least fend off the West!)"

If Japan is somehow still a power bloc, it will be in its best interests to fund national liberation movements in the colonized world.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
The Nazi's certainly would call them that, but look at it this way, from the point of view of the Japanese, they have normal skin color, everyone else is oddly colored.
The Japanese referred to themselves as, "The Champion of All Colored Races."
 
Having either the Japanese Empire and/or the Soviet Union give the Cold War a foil, a potential line of temporary alliances. The Germans could conceivably ally once more with the Japanese, the Soviets and the western Allies could conceivably team up against Germany.

And the indifferent attitudes of certain Latin American political movements towards the craziness of the Reich do give a region in play, just as it was between communist and anti-communist guerrillas in OTL.

And if there is say the Soviet Union around, meaning the US and Britain don't necessarily need each other to defeat Germany, they could theoretically team up with Russia instead, that allows things such as divergent views on maintaining the colonial empires in Africa in Asia. Britain could be running guns into Comintern/Co-Prosperity Sphere territory from Hong Kong while simultaneously trying to prevent the Soviets/Japanese/or Americans from doing the same in Kenya.
 
The Japanese referred to themselves as, "The Champion of All Colored Races."

They also wanted to be seen as White. This was even before the inferiority complex with the Europeans and Americans. Look at their art of geishas and samurai to see what they considered beauty. Even in Cambodia the Khmer killed Snaic fold because of their lighter skin. Though that probably was not to do with jealousy so much as them looking comparatively foreign.
 
They will do no such thing. The Nazis were friendly with Iranians and Indians. Arabs were thought as Semitic as Jews and the Nazi higher-ups (Hitler and Himmler included) agonized over allowing Arab volunteer brigades.

depends, they had different thoughts on different area wight it either being the ruling class or e peasantry that was considered pure or inferior, with the cities being for mongrelization form their point of view. It depends on whether or not they are fine with letting some of e more violent non-Aryans go into the line of fire until they are eliminated or prove themselves from some Aryan tribe in the desert.
 
The difficulty is defeating the USSR. That, barring some really serious set-up, is not possible. Even in my A-A/NW I was never really happy with the circumstances that I had to use.
And moreover, whatever conceit is used to bring about a Soviet defeat, there will be another war shortly thereafter, once the post-ceasefire USSR has rearmed properly and sorted out its military again.

It's tough to get any peace after summer 1942 - and peace before that won't last long enough for there to be a German bomb, which is the only thing that could stop the resumption of hostilities other than a prolonged second Russian Civil War.
 
This brings up a good question. In a tripolar cold war with the USSR, Reich, and USA, the USSR would obviously support communist revolutionaries, the Reich fascist revolutionaries, but what about the USA? can there be such a thing as a centrist revolutionary?
 

CalBear

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This brings up a good question. In a tripolar cold war with the USSR, Reich, and USA, the USSR would obviously support communist revolutionaries, the Reich fascist revolutionaries, but what about the USA? can there be such a thing as a centrist revolutionary?

The U.S. would likely try to support actual democratic movements. It would be rather like trying to empty the Pacific with a teaspoon, but it would be the only course available.

Three way Cold Wars, BTW, as so dynamically unstable that they have a very short half-life. You will never have a true three way balance, the two will always go after the third, with both figuring to clean up in the aftermath at the expense of the other ally of the moment. In the scenario outlined you would likely see the two totalitarian states make common cause to destroy the liberal democracy, since both believe that the democracy to be inherently weak.
 
There is plenty of room for the USSR to ally with the West instead, and there's no reason with the USSR around that the US and Britain are necessarily going to be guaranteed on great terms with each other.

Britain is trying to hold its colonial empire together while sponsoring rebellions in Axis and Comintern territories, and the US as a liberal democratic republic with a lot of strength without relying on foreign exploitation probably has the most potential in terms of backing independence movements. So it is a serious foreign policy for any US administration over whether supporting decolonial movements throughout the world, including the British Empire, would lead to a stronger and more united front against totalitarianism than being hand-in-hand with the Britpire, or not.
 

MSZ

Banned
The U.S. would likely try to support actual democratic movements. It would be rather like trying to empty the Pacific with a teaspoon, but it would be the only course available.

I disagree. Not every revolutionary movement has an ideological background. Plus, many dictators manage to forget quite quickly about their ideology once in power, are only in it for the power and wealth. Basic human nature. In such a scenario, the USA may very well support your average military dictatorship/charismatic autocrat who doesn't have a fascist/communist background. Just an army/popular movement to back him. And to such a person, US dollars would be just as good coming from the USA, as they would from the USSR/a Fascist regime. It would only depend who pays more.

Most of your average South American or Middle Eastern dictators could qualify here. Sure, they were nationalistic or internationalistic in name, had some ideology to give to the people and hide behind, but were equaly happy to support both sides of the cold war to get personal benefits from it. Nasser could be an example.
 
OTL Indonesia is one of the ur-examples. It's not an in-sphere-of-influence power play like propping up a Latin America junta to suppress Communist influence, neither is it ideological like supporting Pinochet and his market reforms in Chile. The US supported Indonesia because it looked like the Dutch couldn't hold it together and the incoming republican regime was anti-communist.
 
OTL Indonesia is one of the ur-examples. It's not an in-sphere-of-influence power play like propping up a Latin America junta to suppress Communist influence, neither is it ideological like supporting Pinochet and his market reforms in Chile. The US supported Indonesia because it looked like the Dutch couldn't hold it together and the incoming republican regime was anti-communist.
The regime made up of Japanese collaborators who knew they were being turned into a colony and helped ship hundreds of thousands of their own to their deaths. Funny how things work.
 
Right now me and a couple of other modders are beginning to put plans together for a Reich American Cold War mod for the upcoming game, East vs West. Right now, though, we are having a lot of trouble deciding on a timeline, what would be realistic for the Axis and Allies to hold, what would allow the countries to be roughly evenly matched? This is a very debatable topic, so I want to get it going now, the plan for the mod is to get a semi-realistic campaign between 1945 and 1991 for the two countries with tons of events and the like. I know butterflies would be everywhere, but what are some possible crisis that could happen in a scenario where Germany wins the second world war.

Even better, is there a realistic tripolar world that could emerge (liberal democracy, socialist, fascist) that could emerge post ww1?

There are a lot of questions about what would emerge, given the questions over PoDs used to lead to a successful Third Reich; I'm going to gloss over that in particular, and see what I come up with:

Nazi Germany never faces the United States at war. Perhaps its because Robert Taft is president; perhaps its because the UK has opted to sue for terms instead of fighting on its own (with non-Churchill leadership), almost certainly the USA has been asleep at the switch.

With the UK either Finlandized or potentially hostile but unable to do much (A Cuba writ large), Europe can be divided into three parts: The Reich, the Vassals, and the Atrocities.

Nazi Germany is top dog. While no one who replaces Hitler is going to be as insane, no one is going to be a particularly nice person either. Even the likes of Albert Speer would be analogous to Lazar Kaganovich and the likely military men are likely to be head deep in war crimes of their own.

If an Ideologue follows Hitler, the Holocaust switches to Poles after it runs out of Jews and then moves on to Ukrainians. If a more pragmatic figure takes over, perhaps the outcome is mass enslavement. In Either Case, Germany stretches from parts of France into the Baltic States and Crimea.

Germany's relationships with the rest of Europe are probably heavy handed, if not abusive. Germany might not install puppet regimes in nations that openly allied with them, but there is little room for disagreement and little that can be done if Germany opts to squeeze them. If Germany is sated by abusing Slavic peoples and annexing their lands, perhaps the result is similar to the Warsaw Pact. More likely, Nazi Germany is much more brutish and mean than the Soviets and does things like demanding quotas of resources, labor, and other materials.

Germany has killed an appreciable portion of the population of Europe. There will be no ending the Holocaust, and I think there is no stopping the Holocaust from turning on Poles next. At this point, Hitler could fall over and someone else decide that there are other answers to dealing with the Polish Question, but it's not going to be a good situation.

The Former Soviet Union is governed by various Governors; people who are either masters of the slave system that's emerged or are attempting to make good on the Hitlerite Vision to wipe out these people. Whether abusive control is a ends or a means, this is a particularly dystopian place. Most of the natives are dead via overwork, massive retaliation for perceived wrongs, or simple neglect.

A less assertive USA means that Japan is probably the Second player in a multiplayer world. The key to Japan's Empire is China, a still unhappy place where decades of war has entirely failed to gain the submission Japan has wanted. Japan has outlasted the poorly run KMT and the defeat of the Soviet Union has done a major blow to Communist Ideas, but the Chinese continue to demand independence based on Nationalism.

A lot of White Russians fled to China after the Bolshevik Revolution. A lot of Soviets fled to China after Germany's occupation of the country up to the Ural Mountains. And while Japan would like very much to pacify China, it is unable to occupy the nation and unable to win hearts and minds to make it much easier. Their solution has been a staggering multitude of puppets and collaborators, turning the China conflict into a decades long civil war. Despite these efforts, it is difficult to say that Japan has done very well.

The United Kingdom has been a declining nation, to say the least. India has gone independent and most of Africa is restive and unprofitable. Canada may have openly broken with the UK if it moves too close to Germany and the Axis probably expand into UK colonies if the UK moves too close to the states. This sort of monkeying in the middle makes the UK and much of Africa a bloc of nations. As the years roll on, the UK will probably find it has lost most of the worlds' respect.

And the USA is the emerging player. A whole Hemisphere is its sphere of influence; and that Sphere of influence is growing at the expense of the UK. Canada has probably openly allied with the USA, and Australia and New Zealand have to accept the reality that the USA is more likely to help them than the UK would.

Gone from the Map is the Soviet Union and most "Free" movements. The Soviets no longer care about anything except survival of their people, even if the situation would otherwise be described as warlords. Other areas that resisted Nazi Domination far from home are either independent nations or UK colonies. Interestingly, this means that places like Tahiti are likely to see themselves as the "Real French" and probably throw in with the United States.

Nazi Germany isn't as technologically advanced as the Soviet Union and has a less competent spy apparatus. The USA is the world's first nuclear power and likely to win a WWII whenever it happens.
 

That forum is well known for its outright refusal to actually discuss German atrocities, a bizarre consequence of laws against Holocaust denial and glorifying the National Socialist party.

I think in a nuts and bolts sort of way, this minimizes and whitewashes what Nazi victory would be. This is not Nationalist Spain writ large or even North Korea spanning Europe, but a nightmare that may well rival Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge.

With the understanding that Paradox is a game company and therefore unable to really discuss the matter objectively, I respectfully oppose taking the discussion there.
 
I think India should lead the third alliance/non-aligned movement and fascist Japan should have collapsed.
 
With the understanding that Paradox is a game company and therefore unable to really discuss the matter objectively, I respectfully oppose taking the discussion there.

Keep the discussion here and use the TL itself - it definitively isn't whitewashed although certain things aren't mentioned in the Paradox site.
 
That forum is well known for its outright refusal to actually discuss German atrocities, a bizarre consequence of laws against Holocaust denial and glorifying the National Socialist party.

I think in a nuts and bolts sort of way, this minimizes and whitewashes what Nazi victory would be. This is not Nationalist Spain writ large or even North Korea spanning Europe, but a nightmare that may well rival Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge.

With the understanding that Paradox is a game company and therefore unable to really discuss the matter objectively, I respectfully oppose taking the discussion there.

I agree, but one of their biggest buyers besides the UK and America is Germany, and the game will be banned in there if they allow prison camps and the like, its a business move rather than a glorification of Nazi or whatever. I mean they cant even have nazi flags in the mods, but this is a planned mod for a PD game, so I have to be realistic. Plus there are many ways to "suggest "things like settlement without overtly saying so. (For example the spreading of cores to represent german settlement, and so on). While I cant say in the mod "There are no jews left", I can do a lot without saying so
 
That forum is well known for its outright refusal to actually discuss German atrocities, a bizarre consequence of laws against Holocaust denial and glorifying the National Socialist party.

I think in a nuts and bolts sort of way, this minimizes and whitewashes what Nazi victory would be. This is not Nationalist Spain writ large or even North Korea spanning Europe, but a nightmare that may well rival Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge.

IMO, the author of that TL found a very neat framing device to avoid having to talk about Nazi atrocities: present large chunks of the TL as Nazi propaganda taught to young, impressionable Aryan schoolchildren, while including notes from a British "Black Book of National Socialism" that say just enough to allude to the reality of what New Order Europe is like without actually going into detail on war crimes. That said, while I did appreciate how it handled the Nazis not implementing Generalplan Ost (the plan in its maximum extent would've been a logistical nightmare), I still felt that it glossed over Nazi atrocities in the Ukraine and elsewhere, as well as their rhetoric against Jews, Poles, Slavs, etc., which you'd expect to be highly visible in a Nazi propaganda history textbook.
 
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What about the "Fatherland" scenario?
The Nazi offensives on the Eastern Front ultimately pushed back the Soviet forces, with the Case Blue operation succeeding in capturing the Caucasus and cutting the Red Army off from its petroleum reserves by 1943. The Nazis also uncovered the secret of the Enigma machine code having been broken by the British, the U-Boat campaign against Britain thereafter succeeded in starving the British into surrender by 1944, while the D-Day invasion by the Allies presumably either failed or never occurred.
King George VI and Winston Churchill went to Canada in exile. Edward VIII regained the British throne soon afterward, with Wallis Simpson as his queen.
Germany tested its first atomic bomb in 1946 and fired a non-nuclear "V-3" missile above New York City to demonstrate an ability to attack the continental United States with long-range missiles. The US defeated Japan in 1945 using its own nuclear weapons. Thus, the US and Germany are the two superpower opponents in the Cold War of this world.
Having achieved victory in Europe, Germany annexes Eastern Europe and most of the western Soviet Union into the Greater German Reich. Following the signing of the Treaty of Rome, Western Europe and Scandinavia are corralled into a pro-German trading bloc, the European Community.
The United States and the Greater German Reich are involved in a Cold War.
So we have:
call it NATO:
United States,British Empire (Canada,Australia,New Zealand,India),China,free France (Indochina,and other French colonies),new democratic Japan,East Asia countries.
VS
German and Nazi European community.
 
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