A Realistic Reich-American Cold War

What about the "Fatherland" scenario?

So we have:
call it NATO:
United States,British Empire (Canada,Australia,New Zealand,India),China,free France (Indochina,and other French colonies),new democratic Japan,East Asia countries.
VS
German and Nazi European community.

That was my first thought too, minus the Nuke over New York (I don't think even the Nazis would be that stupid, nor the Americans so easily cowed).
 
Well fatherland is a good starting point, its a good start, but there has to be gameplay in there, fatherland is fairly static IMO, so I will do a fatherland as a base and alter things a bit for a more interesting game
 
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This premise makes me think of something like this.
 
My quickly generated attempt at the world map:

Thoughts on Powers:

-Japan is not going to be doing well in China, and quite concievably can lose it all rather quickly.
-Turkey has been grossly engorged, given how little the Nazis like Arabs and, of course, a complete failure to hold on in North Africa. Turkey could concievably become an independent power.
-The UK is a failing power, with Canada already switching to the United States and ANZAC likely to follow.
-The Crux of the Game is Nazis vs Americans, and the Nazis can concievably grow larger at the expense of Soviet Remants and at the expense of the UK
-India is a wildcard that's grown to a regional power.
-The USA owns its hemisphere, including Canada. The Canucks won't be on board with screwing around with Great Britain, but otherwise Ottawa sees eye to eye with Washington. Most of the rest knows El Norte calls the shots.
-South Africa is likely to turn into its own power bloc as the UK struggles in Africa.
And of course, the Nazis are insane. Expect borders to shift and a "nascent German quality" to emerge over former Slavic lands.

Nazi Cold War.PNG
 
My quickly generated attempt at the world map:

Thoughts on Powers:
-Japan is not going to be doing well in China, and quite concievably can lose it all rather quickly.
Probably going to have it just be under american occupation like OTL

-Turkey has been grossly engorged, given how little the Nazis like Arabs and, of course, a complete failure to hold on in North Africa. Turkey could concievably become an independent power.
I am a fluent turkish speaker, love the country to death, and spent a decent part of my life over there, and even I think that is jerking Turkey a bit too much. Cyprus might get recovered, an azeri-turkish union is feasable, and they might try and retake all of Kurdistan, but that is WAYYYYY to much. Türkler araplar değil, turks are not arabs, a secular republic is not going to go over well with the arabs.
-The UK is a failing power, with Canada already switching to the United States and ANZAC likely to follow..
Not disagreeing
-The Crux of the Game is Nazis vs Americans, and the Nazis can concievably grow larger at the expense of Soviet Remants and at the expense of the UK
But lets be realistic, the soviets will fall apart, but an all Russian post-soviet state will emerge eventually, and most of the autonomous republics will be freed or puppeted, the US will have a puppet government across the ocean from alaska, but a semi stable government will eventually form
-India is a wildcard that's grown to a regional power.
Its going to be a clusterfuck many sided civil war with nationals, fascists, commies, republicans, monarchists, a british remanant, muslims, and pan nationalists all fighting for control
-The USA owns its hemisphere, including Canada. The Canucks won't be on board with screwing around with Great Britain, but otherwise Ottawa sees eye to eye with Washington. Most of the rest knows El Norte calls the shots.
Except for maybe some of the lower states might go integralist, like brazil or argentina
-South Africa is likely to turn into its own power bloc as the UK struggles in Africa.
Boers will take back over, and there will be many para fascists and british democrats rioting, and fighting for control
And of course, the Nazis are insane. Expect borders to shift and a "nascent German quality" to emerge over former Slavic lands.
Generalplan ost will probably be cut back a bit, maybe an assissination of hilter allows Rosenberg to take power and he is a bit more sane than the rest, allowing for some local autonomy and loosening up of the race policy
 
So you wind up with a Reich that is isolated, dependent on fairly limited oil resources, faced with pretty crippling trade issues, and run by a pack of anti-intellectuals who will have far less success in the sciences than the USSR (for all of its flaws, the Soviet state was never afraid to spend money on scientific research).

Why are its oil resources less than the USSR's? It would have Baku, after all, and much of the Arab world would be sympathetic to Germany.
 
(RE: Japan)
Probably going to have it just be under american occupation like OTL

I think this very unlikely. If the PoD is a more dovish United States doesn't get involved in WWII, we likely have the USA following Vandenberg's idea OTL of allowing Japan a "Sphere of Influence" in Japan and continue to sell it oil and other materials.

If the USA DoWs Japan, it must be remembered that Hitler DoWed the USA within the week. Anglo-American Cooperation is a given and ANZAC would already be in the USA's orbit, to say nothing of the DEI.

So, it's up to you, but the USA stands to gain a great deal in this scenario as opposed to dealing with a very Fragile Japan playing as a regional power.

I am a fluent turkish speaker, love the country to death, and spent a decent part of my life over there, and even I think that is jerking Turkey a bit too much. Cyprus might get recovered, an azeri-turkish union is feasable, and they might try and retake all of Kurdistan, but that is WAYYYYY to much. Türkler araplar değil, turks are not arabs, a secular republic is not going to go over well with the arabs.

I'm not sure myself what to do with the Middle East. Hitler's racial ideology would call for exterminating Arabs before killing off the Poles, and I see Turkey making some attempt to reclaim former Ottoman Territories.

Axis North Africa is going to be a deck of cards beyond Libya, particularly given how little Hitler liked Arabs; if anyone can hold a piece of it its probably Turkey.

I don't disagree that Turkey is wanked. Perhaps the Middle East becomes, then, another area of intense political conflict where former Vichy and British regimes find themselves between colonial masters and Nazi butchers with few good ideas.

But lets be realistic, the soviets will fall apart, but an all Russian post-soviet state will emerge eventually, and most of the autonomous republics will be freed or puppeted, the US will have a puppet government across the ocean from alaska, but a semi stable government will eventually form

That's really not realistic at all, either.

The last thing Nazi Germany wants is a unified threat on its border. It will be busily waging ongoing war, even nuclear war, against any attempt to unify "Russia" and surely demand "tribute" to deliberately weaken whatever is left.

Now, Russia is a big place and I don't disagree that China/USA or Japan could wind up puppeting a piece of the action. But this is likely to be a place of intrigue rather than a unified power of any sort.

I might also add that Unified Russia is likely to acquire nuclear weapons and given its abuse may very well start a nuclear war against Nazi Germany. It's pretty obvious why Germany has to keep Russia down, and a cold war where Germany makes the concession to allow there to be a unified Russian Remnant is close to folding.

Its going to be a clusterfuck many sided civil war with nationals, fascists, commies, republicans, monarchists, a british remanant, muslims, and pan nationalists all fighting for control.

India's situation OTL was solved without turning into a complete basketcase for decades. A Hindu-Muslim split might happen, but there is the added pressure that India is now in a particularly dangerous neighborhood. A divided India isn't a power but a battleground...and I think India makes more sense as a regional player than a battleground.

Except for maybe some of the lower states might go integralist, like brazil or argentina

The USA can be counted upon to coup anyone who doesn't toe the line, up until the Axis gets in a Cuban Missile Crisis analog. And given Nazi Germany's likely distrust of Jewish Science, that's not happening until the 1970s or later.

Boers will take back over, and there will be many para fascists and british democrats rioting, and fighting for control

Again, this is a short term situation in a long term view. I don't doubt its possible for unfinished business to appear, but in the long haul this is going to be done in a couple of years. And OTL's solution--of abusing the natives instead of each other--is an option again.

I actually think that Afrikaaner White Supremacy offers an interest ideological choice for South Africa. It could be very possible for South Africa to align with Germany, and I think that a more interesting choice than simply turning into a jigsaw puzzle.

Generalplan ost will probably be cut back a bit, maybe an assissination of hilter allows Rosenberg to take power and he is a bit more sane than the rest, allowing for some local autonomy and loosening up of the race policy

Rosenberg was basically calling for wiping out all Poles and Czechs, as well as a highly exploitative regime to abuse Russians. This is not a guy who is going to take the opportunity to ignore the "Polish Question" or really allow for much autonomy. More than anything, Rosenberg is damn sure that Germany is on top and gets what it wants.

You've chosen an ideologue to replace Hitler. Perhaps war is waged more competently, but can the outcome really vary much?
 
I think this very unlikely. If the PoD is a more dovish United States doesn't get involved in WWII, we likely have the USA following Vandenberg's idea OTL of allowing Japan a "Sphere of Influence" in Japan and continue to sell it oil and other materials.


If the USA DoWs Japan, it must be remembered that Hitler DoWed the USA within the week. Anglo-American Cooperation is a given and ANZAC would already be in the USA's orbit, to say nothing of the DEI.

So, it's up to you, but the USA stands to gain a great deal in this scenario as opposed to dealing with a very Fragile Japan playing as a regional power.
It is never directly allowed to intervene, but selling weapons and setting up a "far east republic" as a post soviet supported warlord style state. I guess it would be fun playing as japan

I'm not sure myself what to do with the Middle East. Hitler's racial ideology would call for exterminating Arabs before killing off the Poles, and I see Turkey making some attempt to reclaim former Ottoman Territories.

Axis North Africa is going to be a deck of cards beyond Libya, particularly given how little Hitler liked Arabs; if anyone can hold a piece of it its probably Turkey.

I don't disagree that Turkey is wanked. Perhaps the Middle East becomes, then, another area of intense political conflict where former Vichy and British regimes find themselves between colonial masters and Nazi butchers with few good ideas.



That's really not realistic at all, either.
Turkey takes kurdistan, and cyprus, the rest is in chaos, transcaucasia is set up, but pan-turkism is on CHP's to do list
The last thing Nazi Germany wants is a unified threat on its border. It will be busily waging ongoing war, even nuclear war, against any attempt to unify "Russia" and surely demand "tribute" to deliberately weaken whatever is left.

Now, Russia is a big place and I don't disagree that China/USA or Japan could wind up puppeting a piece of the action. But this is likely to be a place of intrigue rather than a unified power of any sort.

I might also add that Unified Russia is likely to acquire nuclear weapons and given its abuse may very well start a nuclear war against Nazi Germany. It's pretty obvious why Germany has to keep Russia down, and a cold war where Germany makes the concession to allow there to be a unified Russian Remnant is close to folding.
Yeah, chaos and warlords would be good I guess


India's situation OTL was solved without turning into a complete basketcase for decades. A Hindu-Muslim split might happen, but there is the added pressure that India is now in a particularly dangerous neighborhood. A divided India isn't a power but a battleground...and I think India makes more sense as a regional player than a battleground.
A bit more transitiony chaos, but that would work


The USA can be counted upon to coup anyone who doesn't toe the line, up until the Axis gets in a Cuban Missile Crisis analog. And given Nazi Germany's likely distrust of Jewish Science, that's not happening until the 1970s or later.
Well they did have their own scientists

Again, this is a short term situation in a long term view. I don't doubt its possible for unfinished business to appear, but in the long haul this is going to be done in a couple of years. And OTL's solution--of abusing the natives instead of each other--is an option again.

I actually think that Afrikaaner White Supremacy offers an interest ideological choice for South Africa. It could be very possible for South Africa to align with Germany, and I think that a more interesting choice than simply turning into a jigsaw puzzle.
Yeah, its going to be able to go one way or the other


Rosenberg was basically calling for wiping out all Poles and Czechs, as well as a highly exploitative regime to abuse Russians. This is not a guy who is going to take the opportunity to ignore the "Polish Question" or really allow for much autonomy. More than anything, Rosenberg is damn sure that Germany is on top and gets what it wants.

You've chosen an ideologue to replace Hitler. Perhaps war is waged more competently, but can the outcome really vary much?
He may be more sane, but I know that doesint mean much, especially when he is only slightly so, by cultural autonomy, I mean he does not try to annex the entire thing outright
 
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