A Realistic Reich-American Cold War

Right now me and a couple of other modders are beginning to put plans together for a Reich American Cold War mod for the upcoming game, East vs West. Right now, though, we are having a lot of trouble deciding on a timeline, what would be realistic for the Axis and Allies to hold, what would allow the countries to be roughly evenly matched? This is a very debatable topic, so I want to get it going now, the plan for the mod is to get a semi-realistic campaign between 1945 and 1991 for the two countries with tons of events and the like. I know butterflies would be everywhere, but what are some possible crisis that could happen in a scenario where Germany wins the second world war.

Even better, is there a realistic tripolar world that could emerge (liberal democracy, socialist, fascist) that could emerge post ww1?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Three power blocs

NATO: USA/British Commonwealth/Free France.

Greater German Reich: Germany, Italian Social Republic, French State, various European satellites excluding possibly Sicily.

Alliance of Colored Races: Led by Japan but extending to many Asian and African entities, self-annointed as the liberating vehicle of the "Colored Races" from the White Supremacy of both the NATO and German blocs; highly involved in anti-Western colonial/imperial agitation openly appealing to frustrated racial minorities. It is the loosest of the blocs and is dominated by the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.
 
I think a NATO that is the enemy of the Nazis in the Cold War would become liberal and accepting of other races earlier.
 
Alliance of Colored Races: Led by Japan but extending to many Asian and African entities, self-annointed as the liberating vehicle of the "Colored Races" from the White Supremacy of both the NATO and German blocs; highly involved in anti-Western colonial/imperial agitation openly appealing to frustrated racial minorities. It is the loosest of the blocs and is dominated by the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.

They would never call themselves that.
 

d32123

Banned
If Japan isn't involved, I could see some third-world national liberation movements aligning themselves with fascism and the Nazis.
 
Well, the Nazis would have probably spent extra attention trying recruit from among those Southerners fighting the inevitable Civil Rights movement. Hitler himself had ordered that white Lowland Southerners were to be "wined and dined" in POW camps. Don't know how well it worked out, or whether or not the effect was spoiled by the revelation of the Final Solution...
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I think a NATO that is the enemy of the Nazis in the Cold War would become liberal and accepting of other races earlier.
Really? Because America was really okay with White Supremacy at home and its allies ran globe-spanning, race-based empires.
And (Imperial!) Japan would be just as racist against, say, Africans, as NATO would.
Really? Because they issued a lot of "What are you Blacks Fighting a White Man's War For?" pamphlets and toted Japan as being the leader of the "Colored Races" (including blacks; they could read maps and knew who would rule in Africa) and their defender against White Supremacy; this rhetoric was only toned down due to the awkwardness of the German-Italian alliance. In a world where this relationship has deteriorated, they'll play the "not-White Superpower" card.
They would never call themselves that.
They might. I agree the chances are low, that they'd probably go for a "Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere" or something, but I picked it to convey the highly-racialized atmosphere that any Nazi-involved Cold War would take, and a tack that Japan was willing to (selectively) follow IOTL.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
If Japan isn't involved, I could see some third-world national liberation movements aligning themselves with fascism and the Nazis.
They won't ally with them, though they may try to ape them. Thing is, neither fascism nor national socialism exalt neo-feudalism and are viscerally for the protection of private property, opposed to the redistribution of wealth favored by national liberation movements.

If the Japanese are out, some alt-Maoism will probably fill the void in the third world.
 

d32123

Banned
They won't ally with them, though they may try to ape them. Thing is, neither fascism nor national socialism exalt neo-feudalism and are viscerally for the protection of private property, opposed to the redistribution of wealth favored by national liberation movements.

If the Japanese are out, some alt-Maoism will probably fill the void in the third world.

I think it is worth realizing that the Nazis themselves considered their ideology to be revolutionary, rather than reactionary. It could be warped if necessary to actually be so in much of the third world. Plenty of national liberation movements were more about nationalism than liberation, after all, and I dare say that many Marxist-Leninist states came to resemble fascism IOTL anyway.
 
Really? Because America was really okay with White Supremacy at home and its allies ran globe-spanning, race-based empires.

On the first part, true, but Roosevelt was (to his credit IMO, though you won't hear that from all the Empire-worhsipping folks around here) pretty anti-colonialist after WWII.

Plenty of "third world" states could end up opposing NATO with help from the Fascist bloc, or have local variants of Fascism running the place, but I think a formal alliance with the Nazis wouldn't work. Communism is internationalist - a "Fascist Internationale" doesn't really make sense and apparently failed hilariously when Mussolini tried to put it together in the 30s.
 
With Europe under the Nazi jackboot, after presumably smashing the Japanese Empire will the Allies recreate colonial regimes (with either for instance a Dutch exile regime taking over the East Indies, or Britain simply taking over as the patron of the Dutch administrators) or will the US take a leading role and support republics like OTL's Indonesia?

Even if you give the Reich all of North Africa and the Middle East, the probability of pro-Soviet regimes in China and India alone create an Eastern Bloc worth mentioning.

Europa, Eurasia, and Oceania could wind up the 3 blocs.
 
Really? Because America was really okay with White Supremacy at home and its allies ran globe-spanning, race-based empires.Really? Because they issued a lot of "What are you Blacks Fighting a White Man's War For?" pamphlets and toted Japan as being the leader of the "Colored Races" (including blacks; they could read maps and knew who would rule in Africa) and their defender against White Supremacy; this rhetoric was only toned down due to the awkwardness of the German-Italian alliance. In a world where this relationship has deteriorated, they'll play the "not-White Superpower" card.They might. I agree the chances are low, that they'd probably go for a "Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere" or something, but I picked it to convey the highly-racialized atmosphere that any Nazi-involved Cold War would take, and a tack that Japan was willing to (selectively) follow IOTL.
The Nazi's certainly would call them that, but look at it this way, from the point of view of the Japanese, they have normal skin color, everyone else is oddly colored.
 
Really? Because America was really okay with White Supremacy at home and its allies ran globe-spanning, race-based empires.
That was in a Cold War against a far-left wing state with equality as its (theoretical, of course) ideology.

If the enemy are far-right wing, America is going to distance themselves from them as far as possible, and probably even accept socialist/communist states as allies against the fascists.

Even if not, African states will probably prefer NATO to the Nazis. Except for the British colonies of course, which are still under NATOs control. But hell, maybe Egypt etc. would be willing to co-operate (as an independent state) with Britain if surrounded by Nazis, fascist Italians, and possible Nazi puppets in the Middle East (since Hitler liked the Muslims).

Really? Because they issued a lot of "What are you Blacks Fighting a White Man's War For?" pamphlets and toted Japan as being the leader of the "Colored Races" (including blacks; they could read maps and knew who would rule in Africa) and their defender against White Supremacy; this rhetoric was only toned down due to the awkwardness of the German-Italian alliance. In a world where this relationship has deteriorated, they'll play the "not-White Superpower" card.
Do you have a source for that?

And even if the ethno-nationalist imperial Japanese claim that, I doubt they would really believe it or try to work toward that. For a nation planning to unite all East Asians against the West, they weren't to nice to fellow Asians.
 

Delta Force

Banned
The US and the Commonwealth (minus perhaps Malaysia and even the British Raj, Cyprus, and Malta) would clearly be an alliance of their own. I imagine it would be something of a fortress America/Australia/UK situation going on as depending on how badly World War II goes they may be totally isolated. They are likely to have massive strategic/naval bomber forces, transport aircraft flotillas, and of course huge submarine and surface fleets.

You might also see a Comintern with a very different setup. The Soviets could end up fleeing to Central Asia and the Middle East resulting in the region becoming communist. Imagine communists gaining power in Iraq, Iran, and India for example.
 
Right now me and a couple of other modders are beginning to put plans together for a Reich American Cold War mod for the upcoming game, East vs West. Right now, though, we are having a lot of trouble deciding on a timeline, what would be realistic for the Axis and Allies to hold, what would allow the countries to be roughly evenly matched? This is a very debatable topic, so I want to get it going now, the plan for the mod is to get a semi-realistic campaign between 1945 and 1991 for the two countries with tons of events and the like. I know butterflies would be everywhere, but what are some possible crisis that could happen in a scenario where Germany wins the second world war.

Even better, is there a realistic tripolar world that could emerge (liberal democracy, socialist, fascist) that could emerge post ww1?
Some answers which are not entirely awful (though not great):

Assume that Britain doesn't pull out from Compass to help Greece; Italian NAfrica falls, the DAK is not built up in N Africa, and the immediate result of Barbarossa is a Soviet coup against Stalin in Nov 41 that results (regardless of who wins) in a Brest-Litovsk-like armistice with Germany that cedes... well... I dunno, everything west of the Urals is a bit much, but Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States, and the rest of Poland to Germany. I guess you could extend that to the Donets, but probably not to the Don.

At that point, Germany will offer a ceasefire to Britain which Churchill (handwavium here!) accepts, as the British Empire is intact and has actually expanded at the expense of Italy. Germany has not yet declared war on the US, so that's not an issue.

Denmark, Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands are occupied by Germany.
Vichy still exists. Italy controls Albania, Montenegro, some of modern Kosovo, and southern Serbia, though Mussolini probably falls after his disastrous war outcome to be replaced by another pro-German .
Bulgaria has another chunk of Serbia, northern Serbia is German-occupied, and an ur-Croatia is an Axis state. Romania may have some minor expansion into ex-USSR territory.

Spain and Portugal are neutrals, but Axis- and NATO-leaning ones respectively.

Assume that all French African colonies are Free French, as is Madagascar, after allied liberation, while Italian Somaliland is British, and Abyssinia is a British client-state.

Turkey is a neutral and would really like everyone to just go away. Which is unlikely.

The Pacific is up to you really.

If you want a stronger Axis, assume that Japan delivers a short note to the State Department*, then a third wave of air attacks at Pearl butterflied away much of the opening USN carrier raids through a lack of fuel, and that even though some IJN ships ran out of oil on the way home they were all eventually recovered. The invasion of Port Moresby goes ahead without a Coral Sea; however, at Midway the US fields 4 carriers, but, hit with handwavium torpedoes, they are all sunk, after which a Pacific armistice is signed ceding the Philippines, Korea, French Indochina, Burma, Malaya, Singapore, the DEI, the Solomons, Marianas, Wake, and Midway, and New Guinea to Japan.

If you want a weaker Axis, assume that the UK, not fighting in the Western Desert, put enough tanks and aircraft into Malaya and Singapore to stop the Japanese attack rather abruptly, and in fact counterattacked to ultimately roll on through Thailand and Indochina. Without victory over Singapore, the invasion of the DEI was unsuccessful, and the naval battles there (in the face of significant land-based air) result in damage to some IJN carriers.

There is skirmishing for a bit, but again there is no Coral Sea (because Port Moresby is not a reasonable objective without control of the DEI) until the USN comes out to defend Midway, resulting in a less one-sided defeat for the IJN.

With fuel oil and ships critically short and no hope of acquiring more, after a lot of assassination and suicide, Japan sues for peace, returning the Philippines, withdrawing from Korea and China, and agreeing to pay indemnities for starting the war.

Free France controls Indochina, Syria and Lebanon. Britain retains India, Burma, Malaya, and Singapore. Australia administers New Guinea. The US retains the Philippines and acquires the Marianas.

In the aftermath of the war, you'll need to look at how colonialism does - if the Pacific is a Japanese victory, then the British Empire will cease to be, particularly as India partitions. If Japan is defeated, Indian transition to a Dominion is a possibility, as a Commonwealth is a more viable political bloc. Free France is a colonial empire without a homeland, when there is both client-France and occupied France - it may end up feeling like East Germany a bit. It will probably be able to retain FIC and Algeria for the time being though.

Korea is unlikely to be partitioned assuming a Soviet defeat by Germany.

If Japan wins, then China will still fight on - although ultimately Japanese air power will be decisive, leading to an enlarged Japanese client state along much of the coast with a Japanese Taiwan. If Japan loses, then KMT China is a given (without a strong USSR to support Mao), with a Chinese Taiwan.

In any event, in 1950 the US, UK, Reich, and USSR should all be nuclear powers.

*Your embargo is mean, so we're now at war.
- Hirohito

 
Thanks for all your input guys. What I am thinking right now is a post soviet state with a lot of influence in China, I am thinking about making the POD so that the long march never happens and a sino-soviet republic is created from the ashes. The german block would be Europe, with Turkey maybe annexing azeribaijan (I might end up jerking it a bit in the mod 'cuz I love my former home) and trying to remain neutral even though it is surrounded on three sides by the states (fascists in bulgaria, some soviet allied regime in the caususes or across the sea, and the persians/middle east being part of the Pacific Defense Treaty, TTL version of nato. The Uk would be nazi influenced, but not totally under their control, with most of the commonwealth remaining, but allied with the US. On Europe, I might give northern serbia to the romanians, with the rest going to italy, Bulgaria, and the Croatian state. America would have killed off Japan, and would have created a Far east Republic in northeastern Russia, but Indo-China would end up being a lot like IRL, with proxy wars going on in korea and vietnam. The Sino-Soviet Proxy wars would be in the former soviet states. The American-German proxy wars would be in Africa and southern argentina (argentina is going to start as part of the US's sphere but can easily slip into germany's) Sound Semi-possible? Remember, I am willing to ASB a bit for the game's sake, but not too much, no real alien space bats in my timeline XD
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The difficulty is defeating the USSR. That, barring some really serious set-up, is not possible. Even in my A-A/NW I was never really happy with the circumstances that I had to use.

Once you deal with the USSR, you wind up with a Cold War that is far less even than IOTL. The Anglo-Americans have no reason to deal with the Reich, little reason to love them, and the Reich is run by a pack of lunatics with no reason to compromise. This being the case the West will have huge embargos against the Reich, something that was impractical against the USSR due to the PRC, something that will not be the case ATL since the West will have control of China and the rest of Non-Soviet Asia.

So you wind up with a Reich that is isolated, dependent on fairly limited oil resources, faced with pretty crippling trade issues, and run by a pack of anti-intellectuals who will have far less success in the sciences than the USSR (for all of its flaws, the Soviet state was never afraid to spend money on scientific research).
 
I'm not sure post WWII couldcut it, as CalBear posted, knocking out the USSR is HARD. It might be more plasuible to be set ina no WWII universe ala the Kalter Kreig timeline (three-way cld war), but even at the start that was powered by handwavium.
 
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